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Lazarus Saturday meets the Feast of the Annunciation?

joegjoeg
edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
So this year, Lazarus Saturday will be on the 29th Baramhat (the day before Palm Sunday), which will also be the Feast of the Annunciation.

So, how will the rites be affected?
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Comments

  • copticuser20copticuser20
    http://suscopts.org/press/2012/mar/30/the-church-rite-for-the-feast-of-annunciation/
  • joegjoeg
    Thanks!
  • ArchdeaconArchdeacon
    Albair's book says that we do not celebrate the Feast of Annunciation.  The reason is that everything from the last Friday of Lent to Easter is only celebrated once a year.  The Feast of Annunciation is celebrated on the 29th of every month so we will have a chance to celebrate it later.  As for Lazarus Saturday, etc. we only have one chance to celebrate it.
  • ophadeceophadece
    IS that right? I really doubt that.. feast of annunciation is a Lordly feast while Lazarus Saturday isn't.. it isn't about what we celebrate yearly and what not... I'd like another source besides those quoted above
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13105.msg154009#msg154009 date=1333292937]
    IS that right? I really doubt that.. feast of annunciation is a Lordly feast while Lazarus Saturday isn't.. it isn't about what we celebrate yearly and what not... I'd like another source besides those quoted above
    Oujai

    the english khidmit shamas of the southern diocese says so to. I believe it says that in anba mettaous book but i just can't find it currently.

    my opinion, even though the feast is a minor feast of the Lord, we celebrate it every 29th of a coptic month. Lazarus Saturday, it s celebrated once and we HAVE TO as it is part of the events that happen leading into Palm Sunday and Holy Week.
  • joegjoeg
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13105.msg154014#msg154014 date=1333306691]
    my opinion, even though the feast is a minor feast of the Lord


    Major feast of the Lord.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=JG link=topic=13105.msg154015#msg154015 date=1333308552]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=13105.msg154014#msg154014 date=1333306691]
    my opinion, even though the feast is a minor feast of the Lord


    Major feast of the Lord.

    sorry. thanks JG
  • jydeaconjydeacon
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13105.msg154009#msg154009 date=1333292937]
    IS that right? I really doubt that.. feast of annunciation is a Lordly feast while Lazarus Saturday isn't.. it isn't about what we celebrate yearly and what not... I'd like another source besides those quoted above
    Oujai


    Lazarus saturday is the beginning of Holy Week. The rites of each day of Holy Week have precedence over any feast that falls during that week.
  • ophadeceophadece
    No... Lazarus Saturday is technically not the beginning of the Holy Week. It is just an annual day bridging the gap between the end of Lent, and Palm Sunday. The feast trumps the rites of the Lazarus Saturday. It may not be the case if the feast falls on any other day, dare I say even Maundy Thursday, or the Passion week days, because of that exceptional a case ONLY. I hope this is clear...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • ophadeceophadece
    And another argument too: people go to some extremes and change the rites of the General Funeral falling right after Palm Sunday, but Lazarus Saturday stays without change?!!! Seriously?!!!
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • imikhailimikhail
    It has been set from the 13th century that Lazarus day is fixed even if the feast of annunciation falls on that same day.

    Also, the feast of annunciation used to be prayed in the annual tune during the great lent. It was not until the 17th century when the churches across Egypt started to pray it in the festal tune (during lent).

    The reason is that the Church celebrates that feast every 29th of the Coptic month.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Ok, I wasn't aware of that of course imikhail, but let me simply ask: if the feast of the Cross falls on a Sunday during LEnt, why don't we use the same argument? In fact if, like a couple of years ago, it falls on one of Jonah's fast days, it trumps the readings of the latter.. why not use the same argument? Another question, what is the Synexarium that will be read this Thursday?
    OUjai
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Technically speaking, Baramhat 29th is the commemoration of the Feast of the Annunciation AND the Feast of the Resurrection. Why are we allowed to skip the rites of the Resurrection but not the rites of the Feast of the Annunciation? If you're allowed to skip the Resurrection rite because it will be celebrated on another date, why can't we skip the Annunciation rite since it is always celebrated on another date? Lazarus Saturday is never celebrated on another date.

    Additionally, if Baramhat 29th fell on Good Friday, would we skip Good Friday for the Feast of the Annunciation? What if it was Tuesday of Pascha? Would we skip Pascha and Pekethronos in lieu of the Annunciation rite? Lazarus Saturday, although not part of Holy Week, is the start of the Pascha events. In fact it was the catalyst that made the Jews conspire to kill Jesus. "So from that day on they plotted to take his life." John 11:53

    Regardless of our personal feelings, what are to do this year?
  • ophadeceophadece
    DEar Remenkimi,
    I really don't know.. I wasn't the one who put that right in the first place.. my understanding is that Lent used to finish on Friday, so probably the feast of resurrection was celebrated on that very day rather than feast of annunciation.. but it became a habit of extending the fast by eight days, copying the rites from the Syrian, I think, church...
    Rites teach us simply that the major feasts of the Lord trump annual days.. that's the only thing I'm arguing...
    Oujai
  • ophadeceophadece
    By the way, Remenkimi, you may want to read my previous posts to find an answer to your second and third questions
    Oujai
  • TITLTITL
    Resurrection is technically in 5 days?!  :o
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13105.msg154037#msg154037 date=1333352460]
    And another argument too: people go to some extremes and change the rites of the General Funeral falling right after Palm Sunday, but Lazarus Saturday stays without change?!!! Seriously?!!!
    Oujai qen `P[C

    that "extreme" change to the General Funeral was based on people's changes to Palm Sunday Liturgy. It has to do with Palm Sunday liturgy more than ever.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13105.msg154042#msg154042 date=1333374277]
    Ok, I wasn't aware of that of course imikhail, but let me simply ask: if the feast of the Cross falls on a Sunday during LEnt, why don't we use the same argument? In fact if, like a couple of years ago, it falls on one of Jonah's fast days, it trumps the readings of the latter.. why not use the same argument? Another question, what is the Synexarium that will be read this Thursday?
    OUjai


    The feast of the Cross during Lent has a special handling that is not followed nowadays according to the original rite. I can PM you those rules if you like.
  • ophadeceophadece
    That would be greatly appreciated imikhail please.. it's sad though that we are ignorant of those rites of old, and people keep chopping and changing as they please, and give us bogus rules.. I'm sorry to say this but I'm just appalled by the many teachers we have with differing opinions in the one church.. and those rites are one of the means of unification...
    Oujai
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=13105.msg154067#msg154067 date=1333384700]
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13105.msg154042#msg154042 date=1333374277]
    Ok, I wasn't aware of that of course imikhail, but let me simply ask: if the feast of the Cross falls on a Sunday during LEnt, why don't we use the same argument? In fact if, like a couple of years ago, it falls on one of Jonah's fast days, it trumps the readings of the latter.. why not use the same argument? Another question, what is the Synexarium that will be read this Thursday?
    OUjai


    The feast of the Cross during Lent has a special handling that is not followed nowadays according to the original rite. I can PM you those rules if you like.

    I'd like to know about it.
  • imikhailimikhail
    Here they are:


    During Great Lent:
     

    • [li] If it falls on Saturday or Sunday, the Lenten tune is replaced with the Cross tune (the Sha’anini ) along with the annual one. [/li]
       
      [li] If it falls on any weekday, except Friday, then the liturgy of the previous day is prayed early and the vespers for the feast of the Cross is prayed right after communion without psalms as they were prayed during the liturgy.
      The Midnight praises of the feast of the Cross is prayed, then the matins incense is raised. The liturgy is prayed
      at the end of the day. [/li]

      [li] If it falls on a Friday, then the prophecies are read and the liturgy is prayed with according to the Lenten rite.[/li]
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear imikhail,
    In your last point, does that mean "the liturgy including the readings of the feast of the Cross"? If so, what are the rites for matins service?
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    So what is the final verdict? Do we pray the Annunciation rite or Lazarus Saturday rite? I haven't seen a clear cut answer. Just conflicting answers from different diaconate lectionaries and grumbling over what the rite used to be.
  • mark.naguib7
    [quote author=copticuser20 link=topic=13105.msg153975#msg153975 date=1333224258]
    http://suscopts.org/press/2012/mar/30/the-church-rite-for-the-feast-of-annunciation/


    I guess this should be the clear cut answer.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=13105.msg154147#msg154147 date=1333475152]
    So what is the final verdict? Do we pray the Annunciation rite or Lazarus Saturday rite? I haven't seen a clear cut answer. Just conflicting answers from different diaconate lectionaries and grumbling over what the rite used to be.


    Definitely Lazarus.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=13105.msg154143#msg154143 date=1333471655]
    Dear imikhail,
    In your last point, does that mean "the liturgy including the readings of the feast of the Cross"? If so, what are the rites for matins service?
    Oujai qen `P[C


    It means that the feast of the Cross is "ignored" if it falls on any Friday of the Great Lent.
  • ABasantiABasanti
    Lazarus overrides annunciation because we celebrate annunciation every month. Lazarus is a must its on a set day! To answer back to ur questions. The Lord was in this event however annunciation He was just mentioned. But this isn't the point. Lazarus rites must override. Just like Palm Sunday Funeral afterward is joyful because ye feast overrides. Therefore we still wear red budrashel red and joyful gospel. Each day has its rites.
  • Unknown
    Yo Basanti Guyyyyyy!!!!

    Legend

    ReturnOrthodoxy
  • joegjoeg
    [quote author=ABasanti link=topic=13105.msg154306#msg154306 date=1333689108]
    Just like Palm Sunday Funeral afterward is joyful because ye feast overrides. Therefore we still wear red budrashel red and joyful gospel. Each day has its rites.


    The Rite of the General Funeral as of the latest update is annual and not joyful.
  • ABasantiABasanti
    My mistake it is annual! I was thinking of Palm Sunday while saying this. You are right.
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