[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145687#msg145687 date=1317867277] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12422.msg145684#msg145684 date=1317865029] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145681#msg145681 date=1317860327] It is a shame that Copts like Mina do not know much of their heritage and the connection between it and their faith.
It is a shame for to put this over the salvation of others. Despite what benefits you consider, anything that a human being places as a block for another to not receive salvation is unacceptable.
Where in the quote you highlighted do you see such a conclusion?
It is a shame that people do not understand what is written.
Yes there is a connection.....but it is not strong enough to take away the salvation of others. Now you are calling me an unbeliever and will not be saved because of lack of that knowledge...does my faith means nothing?! do my good works have no weight on my salvation?! what else other than faith and works is required for salvation?!
Anyone ever hear of the modern day heresy known as phyletism?
Phyletism or ethnophyletism (from Greek έθνος ethnos "nation" and φυλετισμός phyletismos "tribalism") is the principle of nationalities applied in the ecclesiastical domain: in other words, the confusion between Church and nation. The term ethnophyletismos designates the idea that a local autocephalous Church should be based not on a local [ecclesial] criterion, but on an ethnophyletist, national or linguistic one. It was used at the Holy and Great [Μείζων Meizon "enlarged"] pan-Orthodox Synod in Constantinople on the 10th of September 1872 to qualify “phyletist (religious) nationalism,” which was condemned as a modern ecclesial heresy: the Church should not be confused with the destiny of a single nation or a single race
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12422.msg145689#msg145689 date=1317870879] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145687#msg145687 date=1317867277] [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12422.msg145684#msg145684 date=1317865029] [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145681#msg145681 date=1317860327] It is a shame that Copts like Mina do not know much of their heritage and the connection between it and their faith.
It is a shame for to put this over the salvation of others. Despite what benefits you consider, anything that a human being places as a block for another to not receive salvation is unacceptable.
Where in the quote you highlighted do you see such a conclusion?
It is a shame that people do not understand what is written.
Yes there is a connection.....but it is not strong enough to take away the salvation of others. Now you are calling me an unbeliever and will not be saved because of lack of that knowledge...does my faith means nothing?! do my good works have no weight on my salvation?! what else other than faith and works is required for salvation?!
Salvation requires a Church .. a Church requires people ... people do have a language and a heritage to express themselves and their faith .... Got it!!!!!!
Now you are calling me an unbeliever and will not be saved because of lack of that knowledge
Where did I ever say that? What I said is that you fail to make the connection.
All you are saying is that is a part of our faith in that it is the written reference for us in several areas. Everything you said above can be applied to the Greek language. . .will you say that Greek is very much a part of our faith and Orthodoxy?
Why not? Add Greek to the mix. After all much of the Church Fathers writing were in Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Greek was the lingua franca for the first 4 centuries or so of the Church. The Apostles spoke Greek. The Septaugint was written in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So I say again, Greek trumps Coptic.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Greek was the lingua franca for the first 4 centuries or so of the Church. The Apostles spoke Greek. The Septaugint was written in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So I say again, Greek trumps Coptic.
Not for the Coptic Church. Coptic is the language of the Coptic Church NOT Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Greek was the lingua franca for the first 4 centuries or so of the Church. The Apostles spoke Greek. The Septaugint was written in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So I say again, Greek trumps Coptic.
Not for the Coptic Church. Coptic is the language of the Coptic Church NOT Greek.
Mmmkay... Whatever helps you sleep at night. Ignore history if you wish.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Greek was the lingua franca for the first 4 centuries or so of the Church. The Apostles spoke Greek. The Septaugint was written in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So I say again, Greek trumps Coptic.
Not for the Coptic Church. Coptic is the language of the Coptic Church NOT Greek.
Mmmkay... Whatever helps you sleep at night. Ignore history if you wish.
No no no ...can not ignore history. My Coptic Church official language is Coptic.
Dear TITL, Thanks very much for defending me... good thing my wife is not next to me... hehe... Dear Mina, I am sure you know how through Coptic heritage the faith was preserved down the generations => Orthodox faith => salvation. Dear Unworthy1, Coptic is integral to the Coptic Orthodox church faith, Greek to the Greek Orthodox (or any other denomination I guess), English to the British, ... etc. Dear Cephas, Coptic trumps Greek as far as the Coptic Church is concerned. Yes Greek was originally the language of the church, but not the people. Church equals people, and that is why it had to be changed over time. To express our Orthodox faith we use Coptic as a language and as heritage wholly, and that includes the three Liturgies, that as you well know are not part of any other heritage. To argue about phyletism, you should note that we are in communion with other united yet distinct churches. They use their own heritage. Add to that the fact that British Orthodox Church recently formed uses St. James' Liturgy (one not used in the Coptic church, even though the former is an affiliate of the latter). I believe they were not that daft the people who constructed the prayers in such a manner, just to defend the One Catholic Church... Oujai qen `P[C
Why are all you arguing about things that are as we say in arabic...hayfa...Do you think God cares what language you pray to Him? God is the creator of all these different languages (Story of the tower of Babel) and He obviously can understand you. After Pentecost the disciples spoke in different tongues do you think they were saying "Oh well this isn't our heritage so Im not going to speak it." Of course not. One of our commands was to preach the Word. I have seen many families and individuals come to our church and they have no idea what is going on and they leave! As for the comments on salvation, there is NOTHING absolutely nothing you can do for salvation...if you could there would be no reason for Christ to become incarnate and die for us! We already have salvation but the question is will you accept it or turn it down?
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12422.msg145722#msg145722 date=1317891666] Dear TITL, Thanks very much for defending me... good thing my wife is not next to me... hehe... Weird comment.
Dear Mina, I am sure you know how through Coptic heritage the faith was preserved down the generations => Orthodox faith => salvation. Relevance?
Dear Unworthy1, Coptic is integral to the Coptic Orthodox church faith, Greek to the Greek Orthodox (or any other denomination I guess), English to the British, ... etc. That's great! But imikhail was saying that Coptic is a part of our faith because so many texts we rely on is in Coptic. The same argument can be made for Greek. Thus, Greek is also integral to the Coptic faith.
Dear Cephas, Coptic trumps Greek as far as the Coptic Church is concerned. Yes Greek was originally the language of the church, but not the people. Church equals people, and that is why it had to be changed over time. To express our Orthodox faith we use Coptic as a language and as heritage wholly, and that includes the three Liturgies, that as you well know are not part of any other heritage. To argue about phyletism, you should note that we are in communion with other united yet distinct churches. They use their own heritage. Add to that the fact that British Orthodox Church recently formed uses St. James' Liturgy (one not used in the Coptic church, even though the former is an affiliate of the latter). I believe they were not that daft the people who constructed the prayers in such a manner, just to defend the One Catholic Church... Oujai qen `P[C
[quote author=I Believe link=topic=12422.msg145726#msg145726 date=1317902985] As for the comments on salvation, there is NOTHING absolutely nothing you can do for salvation...if you could there would be no reason for Christ to become incarnate and die for us! We already have salvation but the question is will you accept it or turn it down?
Just wanted to correct this little bit here. St. Paul tells us that we must 'work out [our] own salvation' (cf. Philippians 2:12). So clearly there are things we must do. Within the context of the Church, we must partake of the 4 sacraments necessary for salvation (baptism, chrismation, confession/repentance and communion); we must carry our crosses and follow Christ, we must follow the commandments of Christ to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves (as the true fulfillment of the Law). So yes, there are things we can do for salvation. God works in synergy with our will. God offers us salvation as a gift and works with us to achieve it. To say otherwise is to be Protestant saying that our salvation is assured and 'once saved always saved'. That is not Orthodoxy.
DEar I believe, Completely agree with Cephas... we have a duty towards our fellow brothers and sisters by helping them claim their own salvation... DEAR Unworthy1, TITL Is a lady and I was joking that my wife wasn't there otherwise she'd have got jealous... hehe... as for the other comment, actually it's a very good point... but the weight given to the importance of Greek may not match the Coptic... Oujai
I do not believe you meant the Coptic faith but the Orthodox faith.
Yes, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, Hebrew, .. all the ancient languages that the Church Fathers wrote with are essential to the Orthodox faith (dogma, accurate translations of the Bible, saying of the Church Fathers, Canons..).
We can include Arabic as well since there are many writings of the fathers in Arabic, ...
However, to the Coptic Church what matters from a worship point of view is Coptic. When the Coptic Church "exports" her faith, it has a Coptic flavor to it.
You see, its the behaviour in threads like these that has wrecked this forum for me, and I expect for a number of people too.
You start off with a simple question: "Is the Gospel of John read on the resurrection?"
The OP is answered in the very first reply.
That should be it - done, dusted, finite. But it NEVER IS with some people.
People get side-tracked and start on a new irrelevant topic. Because they HAVE to be heard. They simply MUST be heard by others.
Then comes the critical point, the "rate-limiting factor," the point where the whole thread takes a turn for the worse:
People start attacking people based on what they THINK the other person's personal beliefs are (their attack is pretty much guaranteed to be biased because of their previous perceptions of the person, and are generally utterly nonsensical.)
Never mind about getting your facts right first. Never mind about actually READING THEIR POST. Just go ahead and start a flame war.
And then follows the inevitable bickering on yet more irrelevant issues, and the incessant personal attacks, and the ridiculous moaning from the spelling and grammar Nazis.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12422.msg145732#msg145732 date=1317912247] + Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=I Believe link=topic=12422.msg145726#msg145726 date=1317902985] As for the comments on salvation, there is NOTHING absolutely nothing you can do for salvation...if you could there would be no reason for Christ to become incarnate and die for us! We already have salvation but the question is will you accept it or turn it down?
Just wanted to correct this little bit here. St. Paul tells us that we must 'work out [our] own salvation' (cf. Philippians 2:12). So clearly there are things we must do. Within the context of the Church, we must partake of the 4 sacraments necessary for salvation (baptism, chrismation, confession/repentance and communion); we must carry our crosses and follow Christ, we must follow the commandments of Christ to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves (as the true fulfillment of the Law). So yes, there are things we can do for salvation. God works in synergy with our will. God offers us salvation as a gift and works with us to achieve it. To say otherwise is to be Protestant saying that our salvation is assured and 'once saved always saved'. That is not Orthodoxy.
If you keep reading verse 13 says, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. The OSB goes on to explain these verses like so: Therefore, because of Christ's sacrifice, we are to take hold of what God offers, accepting His grace and working toward becoming mature in Christ. Note the cooperation: we work out or our won salvation (v.12) while it is God who works in us to do His will (v.13)
So yes you are right for the most part, I stand corrected. But don't forget that is is God who is driving in us.
I have begun to notice a worrisome trend in that many threads are degenerating to a coptic vs every other language topic and its become anything but constructive to the direction of this forum, everything seems to become a heated argument. Whilst one can never deny the historical position of Coptic in our church, one must also recognize that other churches flourished while using other languages. The Greek church spoke Greek, the Russian church speaks Russian, so on and so forth. Language is the medium by which we allow God's teachings and saving grace (through the Bible, the Liturgy, the fathers' writings, oral tradition, etc) reach the heart of believers and non-believers alike. Therefore one may change the medium without removing the substance of the message and that what we need to remember. Now i am not saying Coptic is useless or has no place in the church, obviously our hymnal heritage, writings of prolific fathers like St. Shenoute the Archimandrite, Coptic manuscripts of the Bible all show the heritage of our coptic language. But in lands that speak no coptic, how is one ever going to pass on the meaning of salvation while using a medium no one understands. When one wants to send a message to a differing town, they would not use their voice to pass the message along as it would not reach the intended audience, perhaps they would use radiowaves to project the message and allow it to register. We must do the same with Believers and non-believers. My heart weeps at the lack of knowledge of Orthodoxy in society, my heart aches for those who seek truth and cant find it. How can we allow the medium of communication to be an obstacle especially when society presents us with enough of them.
Comments
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12422.msg145684#msg145684 date=1317865029]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145681#msg145681 date=1317860327]
It is a shame that Copts like Mina do not know much of their heritage and the connection between it and their faith.
It is a shame for to put this over the salvation of others. Despite what benefits you consider, anything that a human being places as a block for another to not receive salvation is unacceptable.
Where in the quote you highlighted do you see such a conclusion?
It is a shame that people do not understand what is written.
Yes there is a connection.....but it is not strong enough to take away the salvation of others. Now you are calling me an unbeliever and will not be saved because of lack of that knowledge...does my faith means nothing?! do my good works have no weight on my salvation?! what else other than faith and works is required for salvation?!
Here we go again...
For what it's worth, Greek trumps Coptic.
Anyone ever hear of the modern day heresy known as phyletism? Source
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145687#msg145687 date=1317867277]
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12422.msg145684#msg145684 date=1317865029]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145681#msg145681 date=1317860327]
It is a shame that Copts like Mina do not know much of their heritage and the connection between it and their faith.
It is a shame for to put this over the salvation of others. Despite what benefits you consider, anything that a human being places as a block for another to not receive salvation is unacceptable.
Where in the quote you highlighted do you see such a conclusion?
It is a shame that people do not understand what is written.
Yes there is a connection.....but it is not strong enough to take away the salvation of others. Now you are calling me an unbeliever and will not be saved because of lack of that knowledge...does my faith means nothing?! do my good works have no weight on my salvation?! what else other than faith and works is required for salvation?!
Salvation requires a Church .. a Church requires people ... people do have a language and a heritage to express themselves and their faith .... Got it!!!!!!
Where did I ever say that? What I said is that you fail to make the connection.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Here we go again...
For what it's worth, Greek trumps Coptic.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145704#msg145704 date=1317875298]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12422.msg145690#msg145690 date=1317871812]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Here we go again...
For what it's worth, Greek trumps Coptic.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Greek was the lingua franca for the first 4 centuries or so of the Church. The Apostles spoke Greek. The Septaugint was written in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So I say again, Greek trumps Coptic.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145704#msg145704 date=1317875298]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12422.msg145690#msg145690 date=1317871812]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Here we go again...
For what it's worth, Greek trumps Coptic.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Greek was the lingua franca for the first 4 centuries or so of the Church. The Apostles spoke Greek. The Septaugint was written in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So I say again, Greek trumps Coptic.
Not for the Coptic Church. Coptic is the language of the Coptic Church NOT Greek.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145707#msg145707 date=1317876082]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12422.msg145706#msg145706 date=1317875989]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145704#msg145704 date=1317875298]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12422.msg145690#msg145690 date=1317871812]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Here we go again...
For what it's worth, Greek trumps Coptic.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Greek was the lingua franca for the first 4 centuries or so of the Church. The Apostles spoke Greek. The Septaugint was written in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So I say again, Greek trumps Coptic.
Not for the Coptic Church. Coptic is the language of the Coptic Church NOT Greek.
Mmmkay... Whatever helps you sleep at night. Ignore history if you wish.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145707#msg145707 date=1317876082]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12422.msg145706#msg145706 date=1317875989]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145704#msg145704 date=1317875298]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12422.msg145690#msg145690 date=1317871812]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Here we go again...
For what it's worth, Greek trumps Coptic.
Sorry to disappoint you Kephas. To the Coptic Church Coptic trumps Greek.
Sorry to disappoint you, but Greek was the lingua franca for the first 4 centuries or so of the Church. The Apostles spoke Greek. The Septaugint was written in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So I say again, Greek trumps Coptic.
Not for the Coptic Church. Coptic is the language of the Coptic Church NOT Greek.
Mmmkay... Whatever helps you sleep at night. Ignore history if you wish.
No no no ...can not ignore history. My Coptic Church official language is Coptic.
Now I can sleep better.
Thanks very much for defending me... good thing my wife is not next to me... hehe...
Dear Mina,
I am sure you know how through Coptic heritage the faith was preserved down the generations => Orthodox faith => salvation.
Dear Unworthy1,
Coptic is integral to the Coptic Orthodox church faith, Greek to the Greek Orthodox (or any other denomination I guess), English to the British, ... etc.
Dear Cephas,
Coptic trumps Greek as far as the Coptic Church is concerned. Yes Greek was originally the language of the church, but not the people. Church equals people, and that is why it had to be changed over time. To express our Orthodox faith we use Coptic as a language and as heritage wholly, and that includes the three Liturgies, that as you well know are not part of any other heritage. To argue about phyletism, you should note that we are in communion with other united yet distinct churches. They use their own heritage. Add to that the fact that British Orthodox Church recently formed uses St. James' Liturgy (one not used in the Coptic church, even though the former is an affiliate of the latter). I believe they were not that daft the people who constructed the prayers in such a manner, just to defend the One Catholic Church...
Oujai qen `P[C
Dear TITL,
Thanks very much for defending me... good thing my wife is not next to me... hehe...
Weird comment.
Dear Mina,
I am sure you know how through Coptic heritage the faith was preserved down the generations => Orthodox faith => salvation.
Relevance?
Dear Unworthy1,
Coptic is integral to the Coptic Orthodox church faith, Greek to the Greek Orthodox (or any other denomination I guess), English to the British, ... etc.
That's great! But imikhail was saying that Coptic is a part of our faith because so many texts we rely on is in Coptic. The same argument can be made for Greek. Thus, Greek is also integral to the Coptic faith.
Dear Cephas,
Coptic trumps Greek as far as the Coptic Church is concerned. Yes Greek was originally the language of the church, but not the people. Church equals people, and that is why it had to be changed over time. To express our Orthodox faith we use Coptic as a language and as heritage wholly, and that includes the three Liturgies, that as you well know are not part of any other heritage. To argue about phyletism, you should note that we are in communion with other united yet distinct churches. They use their own heritage. Add to that the fact that British Orthodox Church recently formed uses St. James' Liturgy (one not used in the Coptic church, even though the former is an affiliate of the latter). I believe they were not that daft the people who constructed the prayers in such a manner, just to defend the One Catholic Church...
Oujai qen `P[C
I'll leave it to Cephas.
[quote author=I Believe link=topic=12422.msg145726#msg145726 date=1317902985]
As for the comments on salvation, there is NOTHING absolutely nothing you can do for salvation...if you could there would be no reason for Christ to become incarnate and die for us! We already have salvation but the question is will you accept it or turn it down?
Just wanted to correct this little bit here. St. Paul tells us that we must 'work out [our] own salvation' (cf. Philippians 2:12). So clearly there are things we must do. Within the context of the Church, we must partake of the 4 sacraments necessary for salvation (baptism, chrismation, confession/repentance and communion); we must carry our crosses and follow Christ, we must follow the commandments of Christ to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves (as the true fulfillment of the Law). So yes, there are things we can do for salvation. God works in synergy with our will. God offers us salvation as a gift and works with us to achieve it. To say otherwise is to be Protestant saying that our salvation is assured and 'once saved always saved'. That is not Orthodoxy.
Completely agree with Cephas... we have a duty towards our fellow brothers and sisters by helping them claim their own salvation...
DEAR Unworthy1,
TITL Is a lady and I was joking that my wife wasn't there otherwise she'd have got jealous... hehe... as for the other comment, actually it's a very good point... but the weight given to the importance of Greek may not match the Coptic...
Oujai
Actually I'm only a kid with little-no experience in life. That's why I participate in this forum-- to learn. :)
I do not believe you meant the Coptic faith but the Orthodox faith.
Yes, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, Hebrew, .. all the ancient languages that the Church Fathers wrote with are essential to the Orthodox faith (dogma, accurate translations of the Bible, saying of the Church Fathers, Canons..).
We can include Arabic as well since there are many writings of the fathers in Arabic, ...
However, to the Coptic Church what matters from a worship point of view is Coptic. When the Coptic Church "exports" her faith, it has a Coptic flavor to it.
I hope I did not add confusion to confusion.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145744#msg145744 date=1317924192]
I hope I did not ass confusion to confusion.
ROFLMFAO!!!!!!
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12422.msg145744#msg145744 date=1317924192]
I hope I did not ass confusion to confusion.
ROFLMFAO!!!!!!
OOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What I find funnier than imkhail's typo is that you purposefully alluded to the same word in your acronym.
You start off with a simple question: "Is the Gospel of John read on the resurrection?"
The OP is answered in the very first reply.
That should be it - done, dusted, finite. But it NEVER IS with some people.
People get side-tracked and start on a new irrelevant topic. Because they HAVE to be heard. They simply MUST be heard by others.
Then comes the critical point, the "rate-limiting factor," the point where the whole thread takes a turn for the worse:
People start attacking people based on what they THINK the other person's personal beliefs are (their attack is pretty much guaranteed to be biased because of their previous perceptions of the person, and are generally utterly nonsensical.)
Never mind about getting your facts right first. Never mind about actually READING THEIR POST. Just go ahead and start a flame war.
And then follows the inevitable bickering on yet more irrelevant issues, and the incessant personal attacks, and the ridiculous moaning from the spelling and grammar Nazis.
And this will go on for page after painful page.
Peace, I've just about had it.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=I Believe link=topic=12422.msg145726#msg145726 date=1317902985]
As for the comments on salvation, there is NOTHING absolutely nothing you can do for salvation...if you could there would be no reason for Christ to become incarnate and die for us! We already have salvation but the question is will you accept it or turn it down?
Just wanted to correct this little bit here. St. Paul tells us that we must 'work out [our] own salvation' (cf. Philippians 2:12). So clearly there are things we must do. Within the context of the Church, we must partake of the 4 sacraments necessary for salvation (baptism, chrismation, confession/repentance and communion); we must carry our crosses and follow Christ, we must follow the commandments of Christ to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves (as the true fulfillment of the Law). So yes, there are things we can do for salvation. God works in synergy with our will. God offers us salvation as a gift and works with us to achieve it. To say otherwise is to be Protestant saying that our salvation is assured and 'once saved always saved'. That is not Orthodoxy.
If you keep reading verse 13 says, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. The OSB goes on to explain these verses like so: Therefore, because of Christ's sacrifice, we are to take hold of what God offers, accepting His grace and working toward becoming mature in Christ. Note the cooperation: we work out or our won salvation (v.12) while it is God who works in us to do His will (v.13)
So yes you are right for the most part, I stand corrected. But don't forget that is is God who is driving in us.
Pray for me
I apologize if i have offended anyone.
His servant