[quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg144826#msg144826 date=1316233067]If a social issue like homosexuality is only viewed as a sin by the church community, then this is a problem
I'm sorry - it's pretty black and white to the Church, to the Fathers, to any believer, to anyone who has ever read the Bible that homosexuality is a SIN. No more, no less.
When you say "only viewed as a sin" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that in your mind, it is something other than a sin? Perhaps it's a complex psychosocial problem, with all manners of confused sexual identity compounded with a persecution complex ... OR NOT.
Homosexuality is a sin. Just like murder. Just like adultery. Just like cursing. Just like alcoholism. Would you like references? I'll give you some anyway:
"9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." [1 Cor 6:9-10]
"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." [Romans 1:26-27]
Would you like me to reference you the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? I get the feeling you've skated over that story. Let me help you:
[quote author=Genesis 19]
1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.” 3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.” 6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.” 9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.
12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place! 13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it.” 14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking. 15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” 16 And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that he[a] said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be destroyed.” 18 Then Lot said to them, “Please, no, my lords! 19 Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. 20 See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.” 21 And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar. 23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. 26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.
If a social issue like homosexuality is only viewed as a sin by the church community, then this is a problem since belief inform actions, and in this case people have and most likely will only ever perceive homosexuals as intentional sinners
I'm sorry, what?
If people continue with the wrong perception that you would have them possess, then no doubt homosexuality would be the accepted norm in the church - in fact, we'd all welcome it with open arms...
Get real.
People only perceive homosexuals as being intentional sinners when they continually flaunt it, are unrepentant of it, claim it is harmless, and have the impertinence to suggest that it is acceptable within the Church (any of these behaviours ring a bell?)
Like ANY OTHER SIN - if a person keeps it between their father of confession and themselves, realises it is wrong, and DOES NOT FLAUNT IT AS BEING ACCEPTABLE - then people will not even be aware of the sin to judge the person. And even if they knew, they would not think that the person was pursuing it intentionally, but be reminded of their own sins and their own shortcomings.
and be almost entirely ignorant of the kinds of struggles that one would face as a homosexual internally and in mainstream society, let a lone a culture that knows almost nothing about sexual identity.
What extra struggle does a homosexual have internally compared to someone who has lusts towards a member of the opposite sex?
I think it is hard for christians copticyouth86 because we are trying to live a life of repentance that continuely closes the seperation between us and God. We all are God's creation but we are to be judged according to the life we've lived. He knows which are his and which aren't.
I do think homosexuals have it very hard because how do you change with something you may feel your born with or feel it was always in your nature. I think the only peace there could be is in respecting each other. The church needs respect in what is Holy. If one homosexual changes for the sake of Christ then it is a victory. We think in spiritual terms and homosexuals maybe think in human nature terms. We are often fighting against our human nature for the sake of our spirituality in Christ. If a homosexual thought in spiritual terms would he/she be more obediant to the church thus loyal? I don't know.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144824#msg144824 date=1316218874] [quote author=Timothym link=topic=12337.msg144820#msg144820 date=1316209198] this is kinda funny...its not like the church has a stack of 'excommunication certificates' in the priest's drawer waiting to be filled out and distributed. Excommunication is the church's very last resort in the battle for the person's salvation within the Church Body. Also, please note that a priest himself cannot excommunicate anyone. He can of course, bring up cases to his local bishop who then decides based on the circumstances whether or not this case is unfortunate enough to have to be excommunicated from the Body of Christ. In a normal scenario, hopefully the priest would try and try and try with this person to what we call in arabic 'netfa7em ma3 ba3d" lol or in other words to try and gently make the individual come to terms with his own condition and the Church's teaching. This is called PASTORAL CARE and every priest should excercise it during sensitive cases surrounding relationships, death, illness, and sin etc.
You are confusing excommunication with anathema ...
Excommunication is a religious censure used to deprive, suspend or limit membership in a religious community. The word means putting [someone] out of communion. In some religions, excommunication includes spiritual condemnation of the member or group. Excommunication may involve banishment, shunning, and shaming, depending on the religion, the offense that caused excommunication, or the rules or norms of the religious community.
In the Eastern Orthodox churches, excommunication is the exclusion of a member from the Eucharist. It is not expulsion from the churches. This can happen for such reasons as not having confessed within that year; excommunication can also be imposed as part of a penitential period. It is generally done with the goal of restoring the member to full communion. The Orthodox churches do have a means of expulsion, by pronouncing anathema, but this is reserved only for acts of serious and unrepentant heresy. Source
So in Cor 5:1-6 St Paul excommunicated that person, who married his step mother, with the goal of having him realize the seriousness of his sin.
This is, yet again, the most idiotic entrance in trying to promote from an idiot's perspective that there is anything acceptable about homosexuality.
It is ridiculous. It is stupid.
Stupid: an incorrect conclusion from given facts. Which is different from "idiot": incapable of coming to ideas of rational thinking.
LET's Make it Real Simple for the simpletons: On this planet, in the Orthodox Church, Homosexuality is a SIN.
Homosexuality is a Sin.
Those who try to apply any acceptance of this sin or hide it under the guise of heredity or genetic is a categorical agent of SATAN.
Clear...
Hopefully, for even the stupid (remember I don't mean it as an insult, I mean it in the regard of an incorrect logical conclusion). Check your dictionary before you say I am insulting anyone.
There is only a misperception of the part of liberal thinkers to think that they will change the Church into the garbage trove of the rest of the Western sentiment.
Save your podcasts. Save your nonsense. Save your pennies Save your souls.
I'm sick of this thread and all of these similar threads.
There is nothing acceptable in homosexuality. Nothing needs to change. The torment of homosexuals is obviously wrong, and it takes a goof to say that it is ok to torment them, but it also takes a goof to claim that what they do is in anyway acceptable. As long as they are unwilling to chane, they will not be accepted. I pray to God that the unrepentant are not accepted. In the liturgy of St. Gregory, we pray, "the sinners who have repentant, accept them." we never pray for acceptance for the unrepentant. They SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED WITH THERE SIN. The bible says, "Put away the evil from among you." (1 Corinthinans 5:13)
NOTHING YOU SAY CAN CHANGE THE TRUTH THAT HONMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINABLE SIN!!!!! God destroyed both Sodom and Ghommorah for its sins of beastiality and homosexuality. Give up your battle. I back up Ilovestmark by saying that im tired of threads like this. Copticyouth, you have been conditioned into thinking that everyone who deos not accept homosexuality in any way is simple minded, or foolish or narrow minded, but you will never accept the truth that you are incorrect. You are acting like the europians who came to the west and thought that the first nations were savages and that they were enlightend, and they came to save the world. Those who say not to homosexuality are not ignorant, they simply see the truth. They accept facts. YOU DO NOT!!!!!
I understand that this thread is by no means diplomatic but at this point i don't care. There have been many clear and concise posts here that you reject. You refuse them as narrrow minded. So i will not do that. This may be insulting, but frankly that's enough. No more tolerance with this with this. Homosexuality is not a topic of debate. IT IS BLACK AND WHITE. THERE IS NOT NEED FOR A 7 PAGE THREAD ABOUT IT. When it comes to things that are black and white, we have no need to argue, but we must simply stand up close the topic. i cant believe that there has already been 7 pages of this garbage. It should have ended before the first post was written.
I have given up. Those who do not want to believe something will continue living in their ignorance. But here are some things that you will never change: 1) God will never accept to himself the unrepentant homosexuals 2) The church as an agent of God will never listen to your babbling and change its position. 3) No matter what happens, Gof is willing to accept you if you repent. Take advantage of that truth rather then trying to make up your own!!!!
You want a healthy discussion of this topic. The health aspect I think concerning both parties is suffering. I think homosexuals and the church veiw it differently and deal with it differently. The church, I think sees suffering as like when a woman is giving birth, after the pain, then the joy of the new baby. However, homosexuals I think are looking for sympathy and that is why there is very little movement from where they are at. The church needs to go in the direction it is going and we can pray and set ourselves to the standards of Christ and the bible by been an example. With examples, all there is, is an offer to go in the same direction. It is for the other party to either accept or reject the offer.
What happens with sympathy or compassion can be hard is well. Because if we are compassionate towards someone we have to be aware that we don't take on board their suffering in a way that is going to weaken us. But instead deal with it that is going to make us strong, and as a church, to go in the same direction.
theres nothing more stupid and dare I say idiotic than someone attacking an argument thats not being made. No one on this thread has stated that the church should accept homosexuality, and nor has anyone argued that homosexuality is genetic. For the love of god do yourselves a favour and go through the 7 pages (you so detest) and have an honest read. There's nothing more 'tiring' than having people jumping in at the end of a long thread and attacking a straw-man.
And if you're angry that this thread has been given this much attention and has gotten this far, then don't contribute to it. Easy.
And as for 'homosexuals not struggling at all':
"Fact sheet 40 Depression and anxiety in gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and intersex (GLBTI) people"
While I agree that the church and some homosexuals see the issue in a different light, I'd also point out that there are like wise some homosexuals who see it as the church do and try to change or alter their sexuality, some know that this is very most probably futile and just abstain from same-sex sexual activity.
I don't agree that all homosexuals are looking for sympathy I'd say more so equal treatment.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "The health aspect I think concerning both parties is suffering". Could you elaborate please?
"The church needs to go in the direction it is going and we can pray and set ourselves to the standards of Christ and the bible by been an example. With examples, all there is, is an offer to go in the same direction. It is for the other party to either accept or reject the offer."
I think the direction that was very apparent, at least in the life of Jesus was acceptance. So regardless if people who are not heterosexual walk into the church once or twice a month/year or regularly, who want to be apart of the community and may not necessarily follow the doctrine to the letter, they should at least be given the same treatment as everyone else. Now granted some may be very obviously not heterosexual, whilst others are more desecrate (for whatever reason) it shouldn't matter. I think one of the remarkable things about the example of jesus was that He shattered all stereo types and treated everyone the same. Thats all i'm pushing for Joshua, with the knowledge that people aren't perfect I'm also advocating for some education on this topic because it isn't easy to welcome and accept people who aren't understood. And the 'understanding' part of it isn't easy for some either.
"What happens with sympathy or compassion can be hard is well. Because if we are compassionate towards someone we have to be aware that we don't take on board their suffering in a way that is going to weaken us."
I agree with this entirely, and if people want to counsel others or help others in that way they should asses if they have the capacity to do so, and if they find that their well being may be jeopardised then they should outsource someone who is more apt for that kind of work.
[quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg144844#msg144844 date=1316308546] Hi Joshua,
While I agree that the church and some homosexuals see the issue in a different light, I'd also point out that there are like wise some homosexuals who see it as the church do and try to change or alter their sexuality, some know that this is very most probably futile and just abstain from same-sex sexual activity.
I don't agree that all homosexuals are looking for sympathy I'd say more so equal treatment.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "The health aspect I think concerning both parties is suffering". Could you elaborate please?
"The church needs to go in the direction it is going and we can pray and set ourselves to the standards of Christ and the bible by been an example. With examples, all there is, is an offer to go in the same direction. It is for the other party to either accept or reject the offer."
I think the direction that was very apparent, at least in the life of Jesus was acceptance. So regardless if people who are not heterosexual walk into the church once or twice a month/year or regularly, who want to be apart of the community and may not necessarily follow the doctrine to the letter, they should at least be given the same treatment as everyone else. Now granted some may be very obviously not heterosexual, whilst others are more desecrate (for whatever reason) it shouldn't matter. I think one of the remarkable things about the example of jesus was that He shattered all stereo types and treated everyone the same. Thats all i'm pushing for Joshua, with the knowledge that people aren't perfect I'm also advocating for some education on this topic because it isn't easy to welcome and accept people who aren't understood. And the 'understanding' part of it isn't easy for some either.
"What happens with sympathy or compassion can be hard is well. Because if we are compassionate towards someone we have to be aware that we don't take on board their suffering in a way that is going to weaken us."
I agree with this entirely, and if people want to counsel others or help others in that way they should asses if they have the capacity to do so, and if they find that their well being may be jeopardised then they should outsource someone who is more apt for that kind of work.
Cy
What you are asking is no different than accepting rehabilitated alcoholics, drug addicts, rehabilitated convicts, homeless people ....etc. People have stigma on these type of peope and I agree that the Church need to reach out to all these people. However, homosexuals must be in the state of mind that homosexuality is a sin and they are coming to Church to get help.
[quote author=copticyouth86 link=topic=12337.msg144844#msg144844 date=1316308546]some homosexuals who see it as the church do and try to change or alter their sexuality, some know that this is very most probably futile and just abstain from same-sex sexual activity. I would say that if Christian homosexuals feel changing their sexuality is futile and choose to just abstain from same-sex activity, then they do not understand the sacrament of repentance. Any sin that one suffers through cannot gain comfort and relief by his own willpower. It doesn't matter if it is homosexuality, fornication, masturbation, lying, alcoholism, cursing or anything else. You can't just say I will change myself and expect the sin to go away. It is grace that God sends us to help us overcome the sin. If one truly repents and prays for help, God sends the victory over sin. But as I said in Reply #47, homosexuals are "burning with attractions to the same sex" because they abandoned God's commandment to begin with. If one lives by faith in God and momentarily abandons God when one is faced with sin, then he must returns back to his faith in God. This is the definition of repentance.
I don't agree that all homosexuals are looking for sympathy I'd say more so equal treatment.
I have a problem with this equal treatment argument. In reply #103, you gave us references and links on how homosexuals are more likely to suffer and get bullied because of hatred and prejudice. If a bully had to choose to beat up a homosexual or a heterosexual, he would pick the homosexual (according to the article). By this logic, the homosexual requires more protection and more rights than the heterosexual victim. So either way, there can't be equal treatment.
Equal treatment is a big topic. Equal treatment implies that we ignore the difference between two people or two groups in order to enhance the society overall. However, to the Christian, it is the act of ignoring the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals that is detrimental to the society. It is like treating a known convicted murderer the same way as as a known innocent man.
I think the direction that was very apparent, at least in the life of Jesus was acceptance.
Jesus accepted all sinners who repented and sought forgiveness. He did not accept hypocrites and Pharisees who insisted they were right and didn't need to change.
So regardless if people who are not heterosexual walk into the church once or twice a month/year or regularly, who want to be apart of the community and may not necessarily follow the doctrine to the letter, they should at least be given the same treatment as everyone else.
What treatment should that be? We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. But this doesn't mean we allow lazy or lax behavior. We are all called to be perfect like God and try harder to live righteous, pious and holy lives while suffering in this world. It's irrelevant if this person is heterosexual or not.
I'm also advocating for some education on this topic because it isn't easy to welcome and accept people who aren't understood. And the 'understanding' part of it isn't easy for some either.
Does this education mean we learn to accept the homosexual without expecting him to repent?
I agree with you that the world is changing. But modernizing our behavior cannot include giving homosexuals an exception or a free pass to sin.
I read your posts...I read all of the posts...I watched the stupid podcast.
I come to the same conclusion: waste of time, and the podcast is stupid.
Homosexuality is a SIN.
Stop rehashing the same nonsense, thinking that somehow you have stumbled on the common link.
SIN is SIN. Save your breath and you are not helping anyone. You are endangering your own soul and anyone lacking full discerning capability in reading the illogic and the veiled nonsense.
I had read your first post and you said you wanted a healthy discussion. So I picked up on the word healthy and found common ground with suffering.
As for direction, Jesus Christ will someday judge the world and this is discriminating. All of God's creation live under this. As a church, we have to live a life that discriminates us, against our sins, and that is why we try to get purifed (consecrated), and we are all equal in this in the church. How much harder it is for us if we accept those who won't change on the arguement they want equality. Being equal means to go in same direction, side by side. But we know there isn't the equality because homosexuals refuse to let go of their sins.
Jesus did discriminate when he threw the moneylenders out of the holy temple. They moneylenders were lending money that was going to God. But they knew that they were going to get the money back and probably with interest. The rightous people in the temple needed to go about doing what was rightous unhinded, without corruption.
I pray that all people have respect for each other.
So in your opinion in order for God to work in the lives of people they would perhaps require a place where that can happen most effectively i.e. church?
Also you said that people who are same-sex inclined have abandoned god's commandment to begin with. I don't agree with this, but I'd like to know what commandment that was.
I disagree with your interpretation of equal treatment. There are no laws that give homosexuals more rights than anyone else, though I could be wrong if you know any then i'd like to see what they are. Also Laws that protect homosexuals or people who identify with lgbt form discrimination are not "more rights" they are there to enforce equal treatment so that people don't have to suffer the taunting or potential abuse or mistreatment. Thats like saying anti race, gender, disability discrimination laws give those categories of people more rights. Thats absurd.
"Jesus accepted all sinners who repented and sought forgiveness. He did not accept hypocrites and Pharisees..." He did die for them too didn't he?
"It's irrelevant if this person is heterosexual or not." Absolutely! But I think the coptic community can be rather conservative because the culture is based on so much tradition so much so that people's ability to treat people equally regardless of sexuality, can and has been very much impeded. And its like when a non egyptian walks in to the church, its very difficult for them to feel welcome because the culture is so old and monotone. And its not about modernising its about sacrificing what ever holds up that cultural boundary in order to be open to others.
The education means learning about sexuality, the struggles that people face in society so that we can be more accommodating to people.
I haven't been arguing that people should be given free pass to sin, I'm saying lets give them a free pass to a community where they don't have to feel bad about themselves. Obviously the church teaches the homosexuality is a sin, OBVIOUSLY. But you don't need to remind people, they KNOW. Like you say let god's grace work but at least give people a place they can turn to when the world is getting them down. Thats my opinion anyway.
The education means learning about sexuality, the struggles that people face in society so that we can be more accommodating to people.
Let me follow this logic. If someone is struggling with drugs, he would face societal pressures from job discrimination, rental qualifications, ...etc.
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
In society, a homosexuals have better protection than a drug addict, or even a rehabilitated one. In the Church they are both treated the same; both are struggling to overcome desire and lust.
This goes to all of us struggling against our desires. I do not get this argument about the Church accommodating homosexuals, accepting homosexuals, ...
Can you provide a real example of how the Church treated a homosexual different than any other member?
I haven't been arguing that people should be given free pass to sin, I'm saying lets give them a free pass to a community where they don't have to feel bad about themselves.
What does community have to do with the Church? The Church is not part of this world and there is no free pas to heaven. People need to be reminded that they are sinners and that they nee to struggle to enter the kingdom.
Obviously the church teaches the homosexuality is a sin, OBVIOUSLY. But you don't need to remind people, they KNOW.
"My sin is always before me" Psalm 51
Like you say let god's grace work but at least give people a place they can turn to when the world is getting them down.
So, it seems that homosexuality is rejected in the world, does the Church needs to accept it to make homosexuals feel comfortable, accepted, accommodated, ....?
The education means learning about sexuality, the struggles that people face in society so that we can be more accommodating to people.
Let me follow this logic. If someone is struggling with drugs, he would face societal pressures from job discrimination, rental qualifications, ...etc.
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
You know hugging them and telling them everything is OK. Having a "gay and proud of it day" at church. Maybe even a "Jesus loves you just the way you are" concert to raise money for further research into gay studies. We could incorporate the struggles of a gay person into the Sunday school curriculum. Oh and the most obvious one of course: ordaining a gay priest to serve gay people because he would understand them better. You know simple things like that can go along way into making people feel more comfortable.
The education means learning about sexuality, the struggles that people face in society so that we can be more accommodating to people.
Let me follow this logic. If someone is struggling with drugs, he would face societal pressures from job discrimination, rental qualifications, ...etc.
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
You know hugging them and telling them everything is OK. Having a "gay and proud of it day" at church. Maybe even a "Jesus loves you just the way you are" concert to raise money for further research into gay studies. We could incorporate the struggles of a gay person into the Sunday school curriculum. Oh and the most obvious one of course: ordaining a gay priest to serve gay people because he would understand them better. You know simple things like that can go along way into making people feel more comfortable.
Great suggestions Unworthy .. plz report back to your success of these initiatives in your local church. ::)
The education means learning about sexuality, the struggles that people face in society so that we can be more accommodating to people.
Let me follow this logic. If someone is struggling with drugs, he would face societal pressures from job discrimination, rental qualifications, ...etc.
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
You know hugging them and telling them everything is OK. Having a "gay and proud of it day" at church. Maybe even a "Jesus loves you just the way you are" concert to raise money for further research into gay studies. We could incorporate the struggles of a gay person into the Sunday school curriculum. Oh and the most obvious one of course: ordaining a gay priest to serve gay people because he would understand them better. You know simple things like that can go along way into making people feel more comfortable.
Great suggestions Unworthy .. plz report back to your success of these initiatives in your local church. ::)
I didn't think I had to put sarcasm in brackets for you to figure it out.
CY86, don't waste your time talking to a bunch of Pharisees. It'll get you crucified.
We gay people are already bearing a heavy cross and don't need to come across the nonsense, the hypocrisy, and even the sin of judging that people are engaged in here, and carry their defamation as an even heavier cross.
They will all be judged for their ignorance. The Coptic church is already suffering from God's wrath by going through so much injustice as retribution for all the racial, religious, and now sexual orientation and family life injustices these so-called Orthodox Copts are doing.
If anything, the Copts need to wake up and repent. We can't cry out for justice when we fail to care and even choose to defame others unjustly.
[quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=12337.msg144873#msg144873 date=1316402963] CY86, don't waste your time talking to a bunch of Pharisees. It'll get you crucified.
We gay people are already bearing a heavy cross and don't need to come across the nonsense, the hypocrisy, and even the sin of judging that people are engaged in here, and carry their defamation as an even heavier cross.
They will all be judged for their ignorance. The Coptic church is already suffering from God's wrath by going through so much injustice as retribution for all the racial, religious, and now sexual orientation and family life injustices these so-called Orthodox Copts are doing.
If anything, the Copts need to wake up and repent. We can't cry out for justice when we fail to care and even choose to defame others unjustly.
Bolded portion is quite ironic. Condemn judging, then judge - well played.
I'm curious are you "Gay 4 XC" because you think that is what He wants from you? Or is that one of those "in your face" kind of things that gay people do just to annoy others?
The education means learning about sexuality, the struggles that people face in society so that we can be more accommodating to people.
Let me follow this logic. If someone is struggling with drugs, he would face societal pressures from job discrimination, rental qualifications, ...etc.
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
You know hugging them and telling them everything is OK. Having a "gay and proud of it day" at church. Maybe even a "Jesus loves you just the way you are" concert to raise money for further research into gay studies. We could incorporate the struggles of a gay person into the Sunday school curriculum. Oh and the most obvious one of course: ordaining a gay priest to serve gay people because he would understand them better. You know simple things like that can go along way into making people feel more comfortable.
Great suggestions Unworthy .. plz report back to your success of these initiatives in your local church. ::)
I didn't think I had to put sarcasm in brackets for you to figure it out.
Dear Unworthy,
Do not worry ... I knew you were joking. I was just teasing you ;D
Comments
Hello copticyouth86,
What is your opinion on homosexuality and morals. Are they compatible?
May God help us all
I'm sorry - it's pretty black and white to the Church, to the Fathers, to any believer, to anyone who has ever read the Bible that homosexuality is a SIN. No more, no less.
When you say "only viewed as a sin" what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that in your mind, it is something other than a sin? Perhaps it's a complex psychosocial problem, with all manners of confused sexual identity compounded with a persecution complex ... OR NOT.
Homosexuality is a sin. Just like murder. Just like adultery. Just like cursing. Just like alcoholism. Would you like references? I'll give you some anyway:
"9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." [1 Cor 6:9-10]
"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." [Romans 1:26-27]
Would you like me to reference you the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? I get the feeling you've skated over that story. Let me help you:
[quote author=Genesis 19]
1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”
And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”
3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”
6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”
9 And they said, “Stand back!” Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.
12 Then the men said to Lot, “Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city—take them out of this place! 13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it.”
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, “Get up, get out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.
15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, “Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” 16 And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that he[a] said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be destroyed.”
18 Then Lot said to them, “Please, no, my lords! 19 Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. 20 See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.”
21 And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”
Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt. I'm sorry, what?
If people continue with the wrong perception that you would have them possess, then no doubt homosexuality would be the accepted norm in the church - in fact, we'd all welcome it with open arms...
Get real.
People only perceive homosexuals as being intentional sinners when they continually flaunt it, are unrepentant of it, claim it is harmless, and have the impertinence to suggest that it is acceptable within the Church (any of these behaviours ring a bell?)
Like ANY OTHER SIN - if a person keeps it between their father of confession and themselves, realises it is wrong, and DOES NOT FLAUNT IT AS BEING ACCEPTABLE - then people will not even be aware of the sin to judge the person. And even if they knew, they would not think that the person was pursuing it intentionally, but be reminded of their own sins and their own shortcomings. What extra struggle does a homosexual have internally compared to someone who has lusts towards a member of the opposite sex?
The answer is none.
I think it is hard for christians copticyouth86 because we are trying to live a life of repentance that continuely closes the seperation between us and God. We all are God's creation but we are to be judged according to the life we've lived. He knows which are his and which aren't.
I do think homosexuals have it very hard because how do you change with something you may feel your born with or feel it was always in your nature. I think the only peace there could be is in respecting each other. The church needs respect in what is Holy. If one homosexual changes for the sake of Christ then it is a victory. We think in spiritual terms and homosexuals maybe think in human nature terms. We are often fighting against our human nature for the sake of our spirituality in Christ. If a homosexual thought in spiritual terms would he/she be more obediant to the church thus loyal? I don't know.
[quote author=Timothym link=topic=12337.msg144820#msg144820 date=1316209198]
this is kinda funny...its not like the church has a stack of 'excommunication certificates' in the priest's drawer waiting to be filled out and distributed. Excommunication is the church's very last resort in the battle for the person's salvation within the Church Body. Also, please note that a priest himself cannot excommunicate anyone. He can of course, bring up cases to his local bishop who then decides based on the circumstances whether or not this case is unfortunate enough to have to be excommunicated from the Body of Christ. In a normal scenario, hopefully the priest would try and try and try with this person to what we call in arabic 'netfa7em ma3 ba3d" lol or in other words to try and gently make the individual come to terms with his own condition and the Church's teaching. This is called PASTORAL CARE and every priest should excercise it during sensitive cases surrounding relationships, death, illness, and sin etc.
You are confusing excommunication with anathema ...
Excommunication is a religious censure used to deprive, suspend or limit membership in a religious community. The word means putting [someone] out of communion. In some religions, excommunication includes spiritual condemnation of the member or group. Excommunication may involve banishment, shunning, and shaming, depending on the religion, the offense that caused excommunication, or the rules or norms of the religious community.
In the Eastern Orthodox churches, excommunication is the exclusion of a member from the Eucharist. It is not expulsion from the churches. This can happen for such reasons as not having confessed within that year; excommunication can also be imposed as part of a penitential period. It is generally done with the goal of restoring the member to full communion. The Orthodox churches do have a means of expulsion, by pronouncing anathema, but this is reserved only for acts of serious and unrepentant heresy.
Source
So in Cor 5:1-6 St Paul excommunicated that person, who married his step mother, with the goal of having him realize the seriousness of his sin.
good call imikhail!
It is ridiculous. It is stupid.
Stupid: an incorrect conclusion from given facts.
Which is different from "idiot": incapable of coming to ideas of rational thinking.
LET's Make it Real Simple for the simpletons: On this planet, in the Orthodox Church, Homosexuality is a SIN.
Homosexuality is a Sin.
Those who try to apply any acceptance of this sin or hide it under the guise of heredity or genetic is a categorical agent of SATAN.
Clear...
Hopefully, for even the stupid (remember I don't mean it as an insult, I mean it in the regard of an incorrect logical conclusion). Check your dictionary before you say I am insulting anyone.
There is only a misperception of the part of liberal thinkers to think that they will change the Church into the garbage trove of the rest of the Western sentiment.
Save your podcasts.
Save your nonsense.
Save your pennies
Save your souls.
I'm sick of this thread and all of these similar threads.
There is nothing acceptable in homosexuality. Nothing needs to change. The torment of homosexuals is obviously wrong, and it takes a goof to say that it is ok to torment them, but it also takes a goof to claim that what they do is in anyway acceptable. As long as they are unwilling to chane, they will not be accepted. I pray to God that the unrepentant are not accepted. In the liturgy of St. Gregory, we pray, "the sinners who have repentant, accept them." we never pray for acceptance for the unrepentant. They SHOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED WITH THERE SIN. The bible says, "Put away the evil from among you." (1 Corinthinans 5:13)
NOTHING YOU SAY CAN CHANGE THE TRUTH THAT HONMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINABLE SIN!!!!! God destroyed both Sodom and Ghommorah for its sins of beastiality and homosexuality. Give up your battle. I back up Ilovestmark by saying that im tired of threads like this. Copticyouth, you have been conditioned into thinking that everyone who deos not accept homosexuality in any way is simple minded, or foolish or narrow minded, but you will never accept the truth that you are incorrect. You are acting like the europians who came to the west and thought that the first nations were savages and that they were enlightend, and they came to save the world. Those who say not to homosexuality are not ignorant, they simply see the truth. They accept facts. YOU DO NOT!!!!!
I understand that this thread is by no means diplomatic but at this point i don't care. There have been many clear and concise posts here that you reject. You refuse them as narrrow minded. So i will not do that. This may be insulting, but frankly that's enough. No more tolerance with this with this. Homosexuality is not a topic of debate. IT IS BLACK AND WHITE. THERE IS NOT NEED FOR A 7 PAGE THREAD ABOUT IT. When it comes to things that are black and white, we have no need to argue, but we must simply stand up close the topic. i cant believe that there has already been 7 pages of this garbage. It should have ended before the first post was written.
I have given up. Those who do not want to believe something will continue living in their ignorance. But here are some things that you will never change:
1) God will never accept to himself the unrepentant homosexuals
2) The church as an agent of God will never listen to your babbling and change its position.
3) No matter what happens, Gof is willing to accept you if you repent. Take advantage of that truth rather then trying to make up your own!!!!
ReturnOrthodoxy
You want a healthy discussion of this topic. The health aspect I think concerning both parties is suffering.
I think homosexuals and the church veiw it differently and deal with it differently. The church, I think sees suffering as like when a woman is giving birth, after the pain, then the joy of the new baby.
However, homosexuals I think are looking for sympathy and that is why there is very little movement from where they are at.
The church needs to go in the direction it is going and we can pray and set ourselves to the standards of Christ and the bible by been an example. With examples, all there is, is an offer to go in the same direction. It is for the other party to either accept or reject the offer.
What happens with sympathy or compassion can be hard is well. Because if we are compassionate towards someone we have to be aware that we don't take on board their suffering in a way that is going to weaken us. But instead deal with it that is going to make us strong, and as a church, to go in the same direction.
theres nothing more stupid and dare I say idiotic than someone attacking an argument thats not being made. No one on this thread has stated that the church should accept homosexuality, and nor has anyone argued that homosexuality is genetic. For the love of god do yourselves a favour and go through the 7 pages (you so detest) and have an honest read. There's nothing more 'tiring' than having people jumping in at the end of a long thread and attacking a straw-man.
And if you're angry that this thread has been given this much attention and has gotten this far, then don't contribute to it. Easy.
And as for 'homosexuals not struggling at all':
"Fact sheet 40 Depression and anxiety in gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and intersex (GLBTI) people"
http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?link_id=4.1167&tmp=FileDownload&fid=1425
Granted the studies referred to are australian, but this is the best i can do at this hour.
Also go look up anti-gay discrimination laws and why they exist, the bullying and cyber bullying of those who identify as lgbti.
http://www.nmha.org/index.cfm?objectid=CA866DCF-1372-4D20-C8EB26EEB30B9982
No struggles, eh?
Cy
While I agree that the church and some homosexuals see the issue in a different light, I'd also point out that there are like wise some homosexuals who see it as the church do and try to change or alter their sexuality, some know that this is very most probably futile and just abstain from same-sex sexual activity.
I don't agree that all homosexuals are looking for sympathy I'd say more so equal treatment.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "The health aspect I think concerning both parties is suffering". Could you elaborate please?
"The church needs to go in the direction it is going and we can pray and set ourselves to the standards of Christ and the bible by been an example. With examples, all there is, is an offer to go in the same direction. It is for the other party to either accept or reject the offer."
I think the direction that was very apparent, at least in the life of Jesus was acceptance. So regardless if people who are not heterosexual walk into the church once or twice a month/year or regularly, who want to be apart of the community and may not necessarily follow the doctrine to the letter, they should at least be given the same treatment as everyone else. Now granted some may be very obviously not heterosexual, whilst others are more desecrate (for whatever reason) it shouldn't matter. I think one of the remarkable things about the example of jesus was that He shattered all stereo types and treated everyone the same. Thats all i'm pushing for Joshua, with the knowledge that people aren't perfect I'm also advocating for some education on this topic because it isn't easy to welcome and accept people who aren't understood. And the 'understanding' part of it isn't easy for some either.
"What happens with sympathy or compassion can be hard is well. Because if we are compassionate towards someone we have to be aware that we don't take on board their suffering in a way that is going to weaken us."
I agree with this entirely, and if people want to counsel others or help others in that way they should asses if they have the capacity to do so, and if they find that their well being may be jeopardised then they should outsource someone who is more apt for that kind of work.
Cy
Hi Joshua,
While I agree that the church and some homosexuals see the issue in a different light, I'd also point out that there are like wise some homosexuals who see it as the church do and try to change or alter their sexuality, some know that this is very most probably futile and just abstain from same-sex sexual activity.
I don't agree that all homosexuals are looking for sympathy I'd say more so equal treatment.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "The health aspect I think concerning both parties is suffering". Could you elaborate please?
"The church needs to go in the direction it is going and we can pray and set ourselves to the standards of Christ and the bible by been an example. With examples, all there is, is an offer to go in the same direction. It is for the other party to either accept or reject the offer."
I think the direction that was very apparent, at least in the life of Jesus was acceptance. So regardless if people who are not heterosexual walk into the church once or twice a month/year or regularly, who want to be apart of the community and may not necessarily follow the doctrine to the letter, they should at least be given the same treatment as everyone else. Now granted some may be very obviously not heterosexual, whilst others are more desecrate (for whatever reason) it shouldn't matter. I think one of the remarkable things about the example of jesus was that He shattered all stereo types and treated everyone the same. Thats all i'm pushing for Joshua, with the knowledge that people aren't perfect I'm also advocating for some education on this topic because it isn't easy to welcome and accept people who aren't understood. And the 'understanding' part of it isn't easy for some either.
"What happens with sympathy or compassion can be hard is well. Because if we are compassionate towards someone we have to be aware that we don't take on board their suffering in a way that is going to weaken us."
I agree with this entirely, and if people want to counsel others or help others in that way they should asses if they have the capacity to do so, and if they find that their well being may be jeopardised then they should outsource someone who is more apt for that kind of work.
Cy
What you are asking is no different than accepting rehabilitated alcoholics, drug addicts, rehabilitated convicts, homeless people ....etc. People have stigma on these type of peope and I agree that the Church need to reach out to all these people. However, homosexuals must be in the state of mind that homosexuality is a sin and they are coming to Church to get help.
by welcome do you mean 'receive and treat someone hospitably'?
Severian,
by welcome do you mean 'receive and treat someone hospitably'?
To me welcome and hospitably mean that the Church provides spiritual healing and guidance to overcome sin.
I would say that if Christian homosexuals feel changing their sexuality is futile and choose to just abstain from same-sex activity, then they do not understand the sacrament of repentance. Any sin that one suffers through cannot gain comfort and relief by his own willpower. It doesn't matter if it is homosexuality, fornication, masturbation, lying, alcoholism, cursing or anything else. You can't just say I will change myself and expect the sin to go away. It is grace that God sends us to help us overcome the sin. If one truly repents and prays for help, God sends the victory over sin. But as I said in Reply #47, homosexuals are "burning with attractions to the same sex" because they abandoned God's commandment to begin with. If one lives by faith in God and momentarily abandons God when one is faced with sin, then he must returns back to his faith in God. This is the definition of repentance. I have a problem with this equal treatment argument. In reply #103, you gave us references and links on how homosexuals are more likely to suffer and get bullied because of hatred and prejudice. If a bully had to choose to beat up a homosexual or a heterosexual, he would pick the homosexual (according to the article). By this logic, the homosexual requires more protection and more rights than the heterosexual victim. So either way, there can't be equal treatment.
Equal treatment is a big topic. Equal treatment implies that we ignore the difference between two people or two groups in order to enhance the society overall. However, to the Christian, it is the act of ignoring the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals that is detrimental to the society. It is like treating a known convicted murderer the same way as as a known innocent man. Jesus accepted all sinners who repented and sought forgiveness. He did not accept hypocrites and Pharisees who insisted they were right and didn't need to change. What treatment should that be? We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. But this doesn't mean we allow lazy or lax behavior. We are all called to be perfect like God and try harder to live righteous, pious and holy lives while suffering in this world. It's irrelevant if this person is heterosexual or not. Does this education mean we learn to accept the homosexual without expecting him to repent?
I agree with you that the world is changing. But modernizing our behavior cannot include giving homosexuals an exception or a free pass to sin.
I read your posts...I read all of the posts...I watched the stupid podcast.
I come to the same conclusion: waste of time, and the podcast is stupid.
Homosexuality is a SIN.
Stop rehashing the same nonsense, thinking that somehow you have stumbled on the common link.
SIN is SIN. Save your breath and you are not helping anyone. You are endangering your own soul and anyone lacking full discerning capability in reading the illogic and the veiled nonsense.
Hi copticyouth86
I had read your first post and you said you wanted a healthy discussion. So I picked up on the word healthy and found common ground with suffering.
As for direction, Jesus Christ will someday judge the world and this is discriminating. All of God's creation live under this. As a church, we have to live a life that discriminates us, against our sins, and that is why we try to get purifed (consecrated), and we are all equal in this in the church. How much harder it is for us if we accept those who won't change on the arguement they want equality. Being equal means to go in same direction, side by side. But we know there isn't the equality because homosexuals refuse to let go of their sins.
Jesus did discriminate when he threw the moneylenders out of the holy temple. They moneylenders were lending money that was going to God. But they knew that they were going to get the money back and probably with interest.
The rightous people in the temple needed to go about doing what was rightous unhinded, without corruption.
I pray that all people have respect for each other.
I don't think all homosexuals are intentional sinners. The ones who are, are by chose. The corruption happened a long time ago.
So in your opinion in order for God to work in the lives of people they would perhaps require a place where that can happen most effectively i.e. church?
Also you said that people who are same-sex inclined have abandoned god's commandment to begin with. I don't agree with this, but I'd like to know what commandment that was.
I disagree with your interpretation of equal treatment. There are no laws that give homosexuals more rights than anyone else, though I could be wrong if you know any then i'd like to see what they are. Also Laws that protect homosexuals or people who identify with lgbt form discrimination are not "more rights" they are there to enforce equal treatment so that people don't have to suffer the taunting or potential abuse or mistreatment. Thats like saying anti race, gender, disability discrimination laws give those categories of people more rights. Thats absurd.
"Jesus accepted all sinners who repented and sought forgiveness. He did not accept hypocrites and Pharisees..."
He did die for them too didn't he?
"It's irrelevant if this person is heterosexual or not." Absolutely! But I think the coptic community can be rather conservative because the culture is based on so much tradition so much so that people's ability to treat people equally regardless of sexuality, can and has been very much impeded. And its like when a non egyptian walks in to the church, its very difficult for them to feel welcome because the culture is so old and monotone. And its not about modernising its about sacrificing what ever holds up that cultural boundary in order to be open to others.
The education means learning about sexuality, the struggles that people face in society so that we can be more accommodating to people.
I haven't been arguing that people should be given free pass to sin, I'm saying lets give them a free pass to a community where they don't have to feel bad about themselves. Obviously the church teaches the homosexuality is a sin, OBVIOUSLY. But you don't need to remind people, they KNOW. Like you say let god's grace work but at least give people a place they can turn to when the world is getting them down. Thats my opinion anyway.
Cy
I should not be typing this early ><
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
In society, a homosexuals have better protection than a drug addict, or even a rehabilitated one. In the Church they are both treated the same; both are struggling to overcome desire and lust.
This goes to all of us struggling against our desires. I do not get this argument about the Church accommodating homosexuals, accepting homosexuals, ...
Can you provide a real example of how the Church treated a homosexual different than any other member?
"My sin is always before me" Psalm 51 So, it seems that homosexuality is rejected in the world, does the Church needs to accept it to make homosexuals feel comfortable, accepted, accommodated, ....?
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
You know hugging them and telling them everything is OK. Having a "gay and proud of it day" at church. Maybe even a "Jesus loves you just the way you are" concert to raise money for further research into gay studies. We could incorporate the struggles of a gay person into the Sunday school curriculum. Oh and the most obvious one of course: ordaining a gay priest to serve gay people because he would understand them better. You know simple things like that can go along way into making people feel more comfortable.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144868#msg144868 date=1316398968] Let me follow this logic. If someone is struggling with drugs, he would face societal pressures from job discrimination, rental qualifications, ...etc.
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
You know hugging them and telling them everything is OK. Having a "gay and proud of it day" at church. Maybe even a "Jesus loves you just the way you are" concert to raise money for further research into gay studies. We could incorporate the struggles of a gay person into the Sunday school curriculum. Oh and the most obvious one of course: ordaining a gay priest to serve gay people because he would understand them better. You know simple things like that can go along way into making people feel more comfortable.
Great suggestions Unworthy .. plz report back to your success of these initiatives in your local church. ::)
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144870#msg144870 date=1316399640]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144868#msg144868 date=1316398968] Let me follow this logic. If someone is struggling with drugs, he would face societal pressures from job discrimination, rental qualifications, ...etc.
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
You know hugging them and telling them everything is OK. Having a "gay and proud of it day" at church. Maybe even a "Jesus loves you just the way you are" concert to raise money for further research into gay studies. We could incorporate the struggles of a gay person into the Sunday school curriculum. Oh and the most obvious one of course: ordaining a gay priest to serve gay people because he would understand them better. You know simple things like that can go along way into making people feel more comfortable.
Great suggestions Unworthy .. plz report back to your success of these initiatives in your local church. ::)
I didn't think I had to put sarcasm in brackets for you to figure it out.
We gay people are already bearing a heavy cross and don't need to come across the nonsense, the hypocrisy, and even the sin of judging that people are engaged in here, and carry their defamation as an even heavier cross.
They will all be judged for their ignorance. The Coptic church is already suffering from God's wrath by going through so much injustice as retribution for all the racial, religious, and now sexual orientation and family life injustices these so-called Orthodox Copts are doing.
If anything, the Copts need to wake up and repent. We can't cry out for justice when we fail to care and even choose to defame others unjustly.
CY86, don't waste your time talking to a bunch of Pharisees. It'll get you crucified.
We gay people are already bearing a heavy cross and don't need to come across the nonsense, the hypocrisy, and even the sin of judging that people are engaged in here, and carry their defamation as an even heavier cross.
They will all be judged for their ignorance. The Coptic church is already suffering from God's wrath by going through so much injustice as retribution for all the racial, religious, and now sexual orientation and family life injustices these so-called Orthodox Copts are doing.
If anything, the Copts need to wake up and repent. We can't cry out for justice when we fail to care and even choose to defame others unjustly.
Bolded portion is quite ironic. Condemn judging, then judge - well played.
I'm curious are you "Gay 4 XC" because you think that is what He wants from you? Or is that one of those "in your face" kind of things that gay people do just to annoy others?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144871#msg144871 date=1316399746]
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12337.msg144870#msg144870 date=1316399640]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12337.msg144868#msg144868 date=1316398968] Let me follow this logic. If someone is struggling with drugs, he would face societal pressures from job discrimination, rental qualifications, ...etc.
What accommodation(s) can the Church offer?
You know hugging them and telling them everything is OK. Having a "gay and proud of it day" at church. Maybe even a "Jesus loves you just the way you are" concert to raise money for further research into gay studies. We could incorporate the struggles of a gay person into the Sunday school curriculum. Oh and the most obvious one of course: ordaining a gay priest to serve gay people because he would understand them better. You know simple things like that can go along way into making people feel more comfortable.
Great suggestions Unworthy .. plz report back to your success of these initiatives in your local church. ::)
I didn't think I had to put sarcasm in brackets for you to figure it out.
Dear Unworthy,
Do not worry ... I knew you were joking. I was just teasing you ;D