I myself am a Apostolic/Pentecostal raised 27 year old. I was raised in the church my father is a minister. I am trying to learn about the coptic church. Can someone help me understand your stance on speaking in tongues. I read on why you do not do it, I understand that. But my question is for example if a person is from Egypt and they speak Arabic how do they speak in tongues? I am sure arab speaking individuals have and do speak in tongues...Do they speak English? Discuss please.
Comments
You asked for the church's stance on speaking in tongues, then said that you read and understand why we don't have it. So do you need an explanation or not?
As for the second part of you post - I've never heard anyone Egyptian speak in tongues. I always thought people who speak in tongues basically spew out gibberish, not necessarily another language. I don't know why you would think they speak in English as if it is some divine language.
Well I was hoping for a more sensitive answer then you almost dissing my beliefs on speaking in tongues. I myself has spoke in tongues many times and I don't feel of it as gibberish...Basically your saying the apostles were saying gibberish when they were speaking in tongues. When one speaks in tongues they are speaking in a language they not know of. So I am ASKING if a arab speaking person spoke in tongues what does it sound like? And if you haven't hear it yourself don't speak on it please. I need assistance not ridicule.
Wow! You've spoken in tongues. Please share the experience. Did it just suddenly come upon you? Did you pray about it and then it happened? What did people think of you after? Did this occur in church? Did you know what you were saying? Was their an interpreter?
You know what might help in your research is creating a social networking sight for people who speak in tongues.
My question to you is why you would think an arab person would sound significantly different than anyone else speaking in tongues? And if they did, what is that to you? What are you looking for? What if I told you they pronounce random syllables with a heavy accent, what does that provide you with?
A further question is, since you are bringing the apostles into this, how do you know how they sounded when they spoke in tongues? Do you think they sounded as you do? Last I recall, everyone who heard them heard them in their native language.
I ask these questions with some genuine curiosity, don't take it as a "diss."
Yes I have spoke in tongues. Have you ever been in the spirit and let God have his way. Try it sometime and it may happen.
Yes. I do not seek after the gifts of the Holy Spirit but after the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I'll try not to. I am continuing this conversation with you, aren't I? And I'm trying to figure out why you care how they sound like! What difference does it make? I never said it was forbidden. No one is shunned in the church that loves its members. What would happen to them. . .I don't know. I don't see why anyone would need to speak in tongues in the church when we have the greatest mystery before us.
You see how I went through your whole post and answered all your questions. I would appreciate it if you did the same with mine. I think you partially answered one of my dozen questions.
Thanks.
What is the spiritual benefit of speaking randomly in tongues in a language everyone in the room cannot understand? Is it to bear witness to the Gospel or is it for show? A good example of speaking in tongues is when St. Macarios who spoke our language (Coptic) was visited by a Greek who could not speak Coptic, St. Macarios prayed and God gave him the gift of speaking AND understanding the Greek tongue in order for them to converse about the Kingdom of God. Thanks for joining us and you are always welcome here!
Basically, we believe that if you are REALLY speaking in tongues then it will be a gift from the Holy Spirit that will help build up the church not just show people how "holy" you are. Also, if you are talking in a language that no other person in the church understands and there is no one to interpret what you are saying then it is wrong and you are just being arrogant and self conceited because you are trying to make people think that you were somehow chosen by God to randomly talk a language that nobody understands. It says that even if a prophet talks in tongues and nobody understands him then he should bequite.
That's our church's stance.
You came here to learn about the Coptic church not to tell us how to practice Christianity. We are practicing Christianity the same way the Apostle Mark (who wrote the book of Mark) showed us, and we haven't changed since. Don't call us close-minded, if you don't like the truth you are being told go ask on another forum. This website is for the building of people's spiritual's life not for insults to the Coptic Orthodox Church.
I myself am a Apostolic/Pentecostal raised 27 year old. I was raised in the church my father is a minister. I am trying to learn about the coptic church. Can someone help me understand your stance on speaking in tongues. I read on why you do not do it, I understand that. But my question is for example if a person is from Egypt and they speak Arabic how do they speak in tongues? I am sure arab speaking individuals have and do speak in tongues...Do they speak English? Discuss please.
Hi Wayne,
Welcome to the Coptic Orthodox Forum.
You ask "I am sure arab speaking individuals have and do speak in tongues...Do they speak English? Discuss please. "
That's quite an interesting question. If they spoke in English, then that would be called "Speaking English" - many Egyptian Christians can and do speak English (very well indeed). I think this is obvious. Most people speak English.
When you pray in tongues, do you speak English? or do you end up praying in another language? Like swahili?
Do you think God understands Swahili? If he does, do you understand Swahili?
If you do not understand the language you are praying in, what use is it?
In addition to all the other members told you, I would like to add another small thing. We don't approve of the Pentecostal practice of speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues must mean tongues understood in the context of today's languages. That is to say not just random words as Unworthy1 and geomike said.
Yes there are affiliated churches to the Pentecostal in Egypt, and they do speak gibberish. I have heard a friend's experience, and trust me if I say this (at least in Egypt, because I am not being sarcastic or demeaning to your church's practice): it is all done as a show off, hysterical type of behaviour, and doesn't lead to edifying - in other words unnecessary playacting.
Now please, even though I have sounded like that, don't take my or any other member's words here as offensive. We do welcome you from the bottom of our hearts, and this forum is all about debate. So explain to us if we see something wrong, or at least continue to tell us your practice only if you think it will help us as Orthodox. Welcome again...
You will need to install Coptic fonts on your computer to be able to read the next line which is a greeting...
Oujai qen `P[C
I asked if a Arab speaking person speaking in tongues spoke English because if they were to witness to a non Arab speaking person does the spirit come upon them and do they start to speak in tongues. And the different tongues to that person (the Arab speaking person) can be English. When I speak in tongues I do not know what I am saying it is not gibberish because I am speaking to the Lord and I believe if in any fashion that you are speaking to the Lord you are not speaking gibberish. God is not a God of gibberish so if anything if a person is speaking in tongues its not "nothingness".
If speaking in tongues is a gift why not do it? It is a gift that the Lord has given. Life is a gift, life isn't fair because life isn't fair do you no reproduce? No you do it anyway and hope for the best :) So since speaking in tongues is a gift receive it with joy. Don't forbid it.
One thing Ive noticed on this forum also is there a thin line between being sensitive to others beliefs and ignorance. I can easily say things in the orthodox church are "dumb" or "idiotic" but i WILL NOT say that due to respect. i will never relay those thoughts onto this forum. So I would recommend that people on this forum be more sensitive to peoples believes. Choose your words wisely even if you don't mean harm theirs better word usage then what I have heard.
You may speak to God muttering some words, but this is not what we the Orthodox call speaking in tongues. These are not tongues... they are mere murmurs and mutters to the Lord (I am not ridiculing again, I am just explaining our dogma).
Gifts of the Holy Spirit are there to serve a certain role. There is no role nowadays for speaking in tongues... as is the case with prophecy.
Oujai qen `P[C
The main reason the Orthodox Church doesn't encourage uninterpreted tongues is the passage below.
Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.... If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. -1 Corinthians 14:13-17;27-28
Copticuser20,
This article gives a good definition: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/nicozisin_tongues.htm
Hey bigwayne275,
The main reason the Orthodox Church doesn't encourage uninterpreted tongues is the passage below.
Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.... If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. -1 Corinthians 14:13-17;27-28
Copticuser20,
This article gives a good definition: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/nicozisin_tongues.htm
Thank you Anba Bola, I hope this reference settles it, I mentioned it above also, but apparently nobody saw it.
My main reason for asking this is because of this question. HOW DO YOU SHOW PROOF THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS IN A PERSON OR A PERSON HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT? In my church speaking in tongues is the proof that your in the spirit of the Lord (and if your faking shame on you). So how does one know that they are saved under the blood of Christ and has the Holy Spirit in them without showing proof.
The article that geomike and anba bola referred to does not seem to describe the same phenomena. I will say that St Antony experienced glossolalia when Greek philosophers came to him and wished to trap him in his words. He was able to answer in Greek although he never learned Greek. St Shenoute also spoke in a foreign language when a foreign novice wanted to enter his monastery. There are other examples in monastic hagiography from Egypt. I think this is what you are talking about Wayne. The practice is real, as the Orthodox article implies. However, there are fundamental differences with the glossolalia you speak of and the Orthodox understanding and examples.
Orthodox vs. Pentecostal glossolalia (at least what we Orthodox understand Pentecostal glossolalia is)
1. For the Orthodox, glossolalia is a private or personal gift. Only certain people receive different tongues from the Holy Spirit. (St Peter on Pentecost, St Paul, St Antony, St Shenoute from the Coptic Church.) The gift of glossolalia is not given to every Christian. Your example of the gift of life is not a perfect parallel example. For the gift of life is given to everyone, Christian and non-Christian. It is not a gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Corinthians 12.
2. The Spirit does not take over the person. The person using glossolalia understands what he is saying. The mystery is that he is speaking a language (or multiple languages) he did not learn. This is evident in the words St Antony said to the Greek philosophers. He rebuked them and used their own rhetoric against them. St Peter on Pentecost knew what he was saying, even though he was speaking in multiple languages. You mentioned that you do not know what you are saying when you experience glossolalia. It is possible that you are experiencing a different type of glossolalia (a non-Orthodox version). But if you do not know what you are saying, how would you know if there is an interpreter available as St Paul requires in Corinthians 12? See #3 below. And do you personally benefit if you do not know what you are saying? This type of glossolalia seems to be more like mystical ecstasy. I don't say that mystical ecstasy is necessarily wrong or bogus. I personally experience a mystical type of glossolalia when I sing long Coptic hymns. I personally believe the music of our Coptic hymns is a language in itself. However, I learned this musical language and the Holy Spirit opens my heart to experience a different type of worship, rather than overtaking my mental faculties.
3. If one has glossolalia, it must be for the edification of the Church. One must question why the Holy Spirit would give someone a different language if it is for his personal use. As you said, Wayne, God understands every language. Why would someone need another unlearned language to praise God? Why not praise God in the language you already know? Glossolalia implies the unknown language is more valuable then the person's known language. There is no added value if the unknown language is to communicate with God. The only added value gained from glossolalia is if someone who speaks the unknown language is hindered from joining or participating in the Church without glossolalia. In St Antony's example, he participated in a debate with people who knew Greek and the end result was victory for the Church. In St Shenoute's example, the foreign novice would have been hindered from becoming a monk if he no one can speak to him. The end result of St Shenoute's glossolalia is salvation for the monk and growth of the Church. I know it's ridiculous to question why the Holy Spirit does something. Who knows the mind of God? But it seems contradictory to receive a personal gift that is meant to be shared for edification.
If I have misrepresented the Pentecostal view of glossolalia, please correct me. I hope we can have a civilized discussion.
My main reason for asking this is because of this question. HOW DO YOU SHOW PROOF THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS IN A PERSON OR A PERSON HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT? In my church speaking in tongues is the proof that your in the spirit of the Lord (and if your faking shame on you). So how does one know that they are saved under the blood of Christ and has the Holy Spirit in them without showing proof.
It is quite simple:
[quote=1 Corinthians 12:3, NKJV]Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
The fact that we can praise God and call Him Lord is proof that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. And what about baptism? . . .
As for your desire to know if you are saved - no one can be sure. As long as you accept the invitation to the wedding banquet and come dressed and ready, you will be fine.
This is what I have against this whole idea of speaking in tongues. People seek a sign. They want to be sure of their salvation. So they work and work to attain this "gift" so that all may "know" they are saved. Having spoken in tongues, do you have 100% confidence that you will be in the Heavenly Jerusalem upon your death? I doubt you do. No one should be so bold or arrogant as to guarantee themselves a ticket to heaven.
One further comment: speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, along with healing, casting out demons, etc. But as we know that doesn't guarantee or mean anything.
[quote=Matthew 7:21-23]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
So let us seek the fruits of the spirit, which are far more important.
[quote=Galatians 5:22-23]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
We baptise in Jesus name. We believe in oneness the father the son and the Holy Spirit are all the same.
That's a nice statement and I agree.
But what does that have to do with what we are talking about? I am beginning to think you aren't even reading these posts in full, answering what you want and bringing up new issues while the old ones are left unsettled.
The fact that we can praise God and call Him Lord is proof that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. And what about baptism? . . .
I am not answering some of the questions because I just don't have time to do so.
So was this not your question?
The fact that we can praise God and call Him Lord is proof that we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. And what about baptism? . . .
I am not answering some of the questions because I just don't have time to do so.
You responded to baptism, but not my question about it. In context, you asked how we know someone has the Holy Spirit in them. I brought up baptism. You responded by telling me that you get baptized in Jesus' name. Do you see how that doesn't reveal anything about what you believe baptism is?
Let me rephrase my question: Is the baptism not good enough for you to know that God's Spirit dwells in you?
There you go sir...your question was a little vague. We believe baptism is not the only thing one must do. You must receive the gift of the holy spirit by evidence of speaking in tongues.
And what is the evidence for your last claim?
There you go sir...your question was a little vague. We believe baptism is not the only thing one must do. You must receive the gift of the holy spirit by evidence of speaking in tongues.
Show me any verse in the Bible saying that you MUST receive the gift of speaking tongues. This shows that you aren't fulling understanding the topic of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
There you go sir...your question was a little vague. We believe baptism is not the only thing one must do. You must receive the gift of the holy spirit by evidence of speaking in tongues.
Clearly, if you read Corinthians, not everyone has the gift of speaking in tongues. So what about them, they don't have the Holy Spirit. There is no evidence to suggest that St. Paul spoke in tongues, shall I believe he did not have the Holy Spirit?
1 - To evangelize
2 - Declare that the gentiles are accepted in God's flock
The first one took place on Pentecost day and aided the holy apostles to spread the good news.
The second declared to the Jewish Christians that the gentiles were also part of Christ's flock.
The purpose of having this gift is no longer needed.
Everything in the bible was not referenced. So how do we know he didn't speak in tongues or not? I don't know only the good Lord knows. But I know if God gave us a gift and it is free will to receive it I will, and have, do my best to obtain it.
Do you also try to heal people? Do you also go around looking for the demon-possessed, trying to cast them out? Do you try to walk on water? Do you try to raise people from the dead? . . .
I don't go around looking for demons to cast out.
Yes as a child I tried to walk on water, but not now. If there was a place and time were i needed to walk on water God will give me the power to do so.
Are you serious with these questions? Because you can keep going and I can give you a answer. Unworthy1 you my friend are the wrong person to ask question to because obviously your arrogant s is coming out. I want to thank everyone else though.
Unworthy1 I think your fellow coptic members would find it disappointing in the way that you are representing your fellow believers.