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Standard Agpeya?
I've been struggling for the past little while with which agpeya to read because I want to learn them by heart...as a kid the teachers made us learn the only english one available at our church which was a translation with lots of thee's and thou's. I have a version which is one side in Arabic one side in English from Al-Mahabba Bookstore (the same one used by the St. Anthony monastery recordings for the Agpeya) but the translation seems as if it comes from the Arabic! I also have 2 other versions which uses NIV and NKJ..does anyone know if there is an innitiative to standardise the agpeya at all??
Comments
(imikhail, call thing reminding me of the book being called adjpeya and not agpeya.....havn't heard that since i came to the states)
we have lots of people in uk who say it like this :)
and i like the version without the old english, mine is from connecticut, usa, given by a friend who i think got it in ireland.
which reminds me to go and use it...
shh, don't tell father peter i hate old english...
.....so lets return to talking about translations of the Agbeya,Agpaya or whatever (I believe its hard to discriminate the b and p sounds in Arabic).
Can I put a 'bid' in for the 'Agpia' published by C.O.P.T. in Australia and used in English services in London. It uses the NKJ version of the scriptures which has the same rhythm as the old King James but its comprehensible as well as dignified. I don't know who translated the other prayers but they are lovely (in my opinion, of course).
I recently ordered an English translation of the Agpeya from St. Antonious Coptic Orthodox Church of the San Fransisco Bay Area (2nd Edition, 1999). This version is edited by Fr. Matthias Farid Wahba. This version is based on the Coptic, rather than Arabic or Greek.
From the Preface: Here is a link for those who are interested:
http://www.orthodoxbookstore.org/theagpeya-thecopticbookofhours.aspx
Antonious
Lol! I prefer proper old English. What I can't stand is bad English. I wish people translating into English would get the help of those who are native English speakers, even native US English speakers at a push. This is happening more now but lots of early books are just too badly translated to use.
Fr Peter, while I agree there are a lot of badly translated works out there, it's equally difficult to define "bad" English. For example, many translators use the preposition "unto". There is a hymn "Be faithful unto death". Yet Philippains 2:8 in the NIV says "obedient to the point of death". Another good example is Isaiah 9:6. "Unto us a child is born." The preposition is used extensively in the NKJV but rarely in the NIV. I, personally think, prepositions like "unto" should be considered "bad" English. And I think the NIV editors would agree. But NKJV obviously prefer archaic-like words like this.
So we have multiple versions of the Agbeya because of this problem. Some translators prefer archaic-like words they consider poetic, while others would consider NIV style too colloquial. Any thoughts.
Here's the link: agpeya.ca
I don't think it is hard to define bad English. If there is no poetry in a liturgical/spiritual text then it is banal. That does not mean it should be incomprehensible of course. Many Agpeya texts use bad translations, or even wrong translations, and set the text in either a false English, or badly constructed English.
I'd say that generally this is because Copts seem never to want to ask English people to help.
That may be a generalisation, but it is my experience.
I think we're saying the same thing. "Bad" English is culturally defined. I agree with you that Copts don't like to ask for help in English. But in defense of the Copts, I'd like to point out 2 concerns. First, I don't think the issue is that black and white. Like my example of "unto", even Bible writers don't agree on whether to consider "unto" as acceptable English. Second, the original Coptic and subsequent Arabic translations are sometimes so inundated with pronouns, prepositions and words that the original authors were not so clear. In Coptic, every verb needs a subject and an object attached. When there are multiple characters in the narrative, it becomes a puzzle to figure out which "he" did so-and-so verb to which "him". In addition, sentence structure is not the same in Greek, Coptic, Arabic and English. I remember reading once that the whole first chapter of St Paul's letter to the Ephesians (I think it was Ephesians) is one sentence. This is acceptable in Greek and Coptic, but not in English. It sometimes requires a great deal of skill to coherently translate and express the author's intention. It sometimes takes a paragraph in English to describe a sentence in Coptic.
Maybe if you give an example from the Agbeya that you consider bad English, I'll look up the Coptic and see if the Coptic original is trying to say something else.
The fact that 'unto' may or may not be used in Scripture translations has nothing to do with it being bad English or not. It depends entirely on what the translator is trying to achieve. Both using 'unto' and not using 'unto' can be good English in the hands of an expert English speaker.
Some sections from Agpeyas which are not very good English (the worst ones don't seem to be online, and these that I have excerpted from are not terrible, but have obviously not had an English editor...
..O Emitter of light that is emitted..
..bring us to a good start.
..keep us this day away from sin.
..One is God the Father of everyone.
..The Morning Prayer of the blessed day.
..You saved our father, Adam, from the seduction...
..My eyes have awaken before the morning watch..
..from the risings of the sun to its settings..
..Let us praise Him a new praise,..
..I was meditating on Your ways..
..We glorify you, O Saint, the Theotokos..
..the firmness of the churches..
..for He has covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto Him..
..we thank You for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition..
..accepted us unto You..
..But those things which are good and profitable do provide for us..
..Surround us by Your holy angels, that, by their camp,..
..Guard us from every bad thing, from every sin, and from every adversitive power..
..Hail thee..
..Hail her, the Saint, the Virgin..
..O Virgin Saint Birthgiver of God,..
Prime (First Hour) = 6 AM
Terce (Third Hour) = 9 AM
Sext (Sixth Hour) = 12 PM
None (Ninth Hour) = 3 PM
Vespers (Eleventh Hour) = 6 PM
Compline (Twelfth Hour) = 9PM
Midnight (Midnight Hour?) - 12 AM - done in three watches
It appears to me that the format of the hours changes a bit as the cycle moves along. For instance, First hour is 6 AM, three hours later is the Third hour (Terce) which is 9 AM, three hours later if the Sixth Hour (Sext) at 12 PM so forth until we get to Vespers. Vespers is listed as the "Eleventh Hour" but a time is given for 6 PM. If None is the Ninth Hour at 3 PM, two hours later would be the Eleventh hour, which would put Vespers at 5 PM (not 6 PM). Or Vespers would be the Twelfth Hour (6 PM) rather than the Eleventh.
In addition, I am wondering about the three watches for the Midnight Hour. Is each watch supposed to be an actual hour (i.e. first watch from 12 AM to 1 AM, 2nd watch from 1 AM to 2 AM, 3rd watch from 2 AM to 3 AM)?
Lastly, are the times fixed or is this more situational. What I mean is, if Vespers is supposed to be sunset, do we say Vespers at sunset or do we say Vespers at 6 PM regardless of the actual time of sunset for that day? I have the same question for Prime (is this to be said at 6 AM or sunrise?).
Lastly, when do priests, bishops and monks say the Veil? My copy of the Agpeya mentions it is to be said before retiring. Is this in addition to Compline? Are both said, one after the other?
Antonious
Lastly, when do priests, bishops and monks say the Veil? My copy of the Agpeya mentions it is to be said before retiring. Is this in addition to Compline? Are both said, one after the other?
Compline is prayed first followed by the veil.
Thank you for the clarification regarding Compline and the Prayer of the Veil.
Biboboy,
Ah, I missed that the first time. The link was broken on the first message. Thank you for reposting it. I see that, according to Bishoy Dawood (the creator of that site), my guess was correct about the timing - the Eleventh Hour is 5 PM (not 6 PM), the Twelfth Hour is 6 PM (not 9 PM). This also answers my question about the Vigil Prayer (1st Watch = 9 PM, 2nd Watch = 12 AM and 3rd Watch = 3 AM).
So, I guess the Agpeya is based around these fixed hours then. For instance, if sunset happens at, say 8 :30 PM, we would still pray Vespers at 5 PM. And if sunrise occurs at, say 6:30 AM or 7 AM, we would still pray Prime at 6 AM.
Pardon my ignorance, this is all very new to me not having grown up in a Coptic Church but only recently being led to explore it. I find the Rites very beautiful and the history and theology quite profound.
Antonious
Do you know of any plans to make a published (hard copy) version of the Agpeya based on the standards used on that website? I'd buy one. :)
I hope we can keep the discussion going.
Also, Compline (from completorium) meaning the completion of the day is usually said (yes at 9 pm) before retiring to bed. At seminary we always did Compline prayers at 9:15 pm.
Btw, the Coptic Agpeya prayers and structure are identical in many cases with the Byzantine Horologion for example in the litanies and in the concluding prayer as well as the trisagion (minus who was born of the Virgin...etc) and the Doxology: "Glory to God in the highest..."
Interestingly enough, the Syriac hourly prayers were apparently altered at some point and the myriads of hymns composed ended up replacing the psalms. I have one such book and in comparison to the Coptic and Byzantine Horologia (Hours Prayer books), the Syriac ones have much fewer psalms. A similar feature can be noticed when comparing Coptic and Greek architecture to Syriac architecture...but thats for another discussion :)
Thank you for your many insightful comments.
In a great deal of fervour and love of the Agpeya (and also noticing some of the clumsy English), I started working on "translation" of the Agpeya--it's not really a translation, as I'm not going back to the Coptic, but just cleaning up the English used in the current translation found at www.agpeya.com.
Would anyone be interested in proof-reading my pre-first draft? I would like input, however, I warn you that it is proper Liturgical English, not modern English.