I get the feeling your wife is jealous. This comes about by insecurity. I think you will have to make her feel good about herself in a non-judgemental way.
You will have to accept the way she feels about something and reflect those feelings back to her. By saying - "you feel that ....." or "you sound ..." and fill in the rest by describing in your words how she feels.
It doesn't mean you are going to lose yourself. You are who you are. As GOD said to Moses, "I am Who I am." You have your territory. If some one came up and stood on your foot by accident most people would say sorry. So you have to define those boundries. You have to say how you feel when she comes into your territory. Be assertive in actions you decide on and take. She will get angry, but you have to get back your territory a little bit at a time. So start by protecting little parts at first and eventually she won't be insecure enough to have her parents there as well. Give her praise for the good things she does. This builds confidence.
May GOD protect you, strenghten you, and always be your guide.
I think this user, Joshua, has given the best advice here.
Now, this is what I think the problem is, from reading a bit about you, and your situation.
Your wife wants to punish you. She believes in God, but hates God for allowing her to get married. Which means that YOU may have done something wrong before you got married.
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you? Did she feel that you were the only option available? Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
She obviously isn't in love with you - and if she was jealous, I'd be OK with that, but this isn't jealousy. This is punishment.
Its obvious.
In fact, I don't know your wife, but I'd say she's very religious indeed, and maybe she is even mad at God for allowing her to get married.
If this is case, you need to say, that way I can give you the best advice. Im 110% sure that what Im saying is the reason.
If you seduced your wife before marriage, and she felt obliged to marry you because of it, or if you had sexual experiences that she didn't, she could feel hatred against you.
What you are enduring is pure hatred. I don't believe she has a mental problem. She has a spiritual problem.
Maybe she depended on God for marrying someone, and she ended up with you (not to make it sound bad against you) - and now she hates God for allowing her marriage to be with you. It could be for ANY of these reasons.
Women, who get married between 21 to 30, MAY feel their life is over at the point of marriage, and they could genuinely blame you for that. ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, i know - but if she had a good social life, and knew many friends, and was not sure about you, but depended on God to close this door with you, and it didn't close (i.e. you ended up getting married), she could hate you and God.
Ultimately, if what I'm saying is true, there are a few things you can do to help the situation:
a) Tell her that she decided , with her free will to marry you. Part of being an adult is that we are responsible for the decisions we make, and we don't take it out on others if we feel that we've made the wrong ones.
b) That she is assuming that she'd have found better than you - she doesn't know. She may have found worse.
I am pretty sure that when she sees the sacrifices you have given to calm her insecurities and her hatred, she will love you more. She IS the same girl you fell in love with, but marriage, at the wrong time, for some people, can produce bad results.
I would not talk about divorce yet or think this. Not at all.
But try to understand what is upsetting her. This is NOT the girl you married dude. She is definately not herself.
hi Zoxsasi, Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
she had all the freedom... I suggested to break off the engagement couple of time...but she was determined to promise that it will work Did she feel that you were the only option available? I don;\'t think she felt that way...she had 2 previous engagement...but i don't think this is a problem for her Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors? she probably hates me..she actually asked for divorce now afterI have lost my job...and off course she feels her luxurious world is collapsing...her constant accustation that I don't love enough..leaving my family..my friends..and focusing on the well being of the children...getting abused to always lose weight...and I don't love enough...telling me what to eat and where to work and what to do..and all that is not enough...even when we go to church ..if it is ever allawd ..i will be taling care of both kids..so she can enjoy the holy masss...and I don't love enough,,
OK.. I see. I understand now your situation perfectly well.
I'm just curious - what exactly about her did you like? What was one of the qualities that you married her for??
If she wants to divorce you because you have no work; its extremely arrogant of her, but if she does divorce you, you are innocent.
But tell me, what did you like? I mean, was it her personality? Her appearance? What did she like about you?
So, it seems that you were a total gentleman before marriage - but then im just curious as to why she chose you?
I get the feeling your wife is jealous. This comes about by insecurity. I think you will have to make her feel good about herself in a non-judgemental way.
You will have to accept the way she feels about something and reflect those feelings back to her. By saying - "you feel that ....." or "you sound ..." and fill in the rest by describing in your words how she feels.
It doesn't mean you are going to lose yourself. You are who you are. As GOD said to Moses, "I am Who I am." You have your territory. If some one came up and stood on your foot by accident most people would say sorry. So you have to define those boundries. You have to say how you feel when she comes into your territory. Be assertive in actions you decide on and take. She will get angry, but you have to get back your territory a little bit at a time. So start by protecting little parts at first and eventually she won't be insecure enough to have her parents there as well. Give her praise for the good things she does. This builds confidence.
May GOD protect you, strenghten you, and always be your guide.
I think this user, Joshua, has given the best advice here.
Now, this is what I think the problem is, from reading a bit about you, and your situation.
Your wife wants to punish you. She believes in God, but hates God for allowing her to get married. Which means that YOU may have done something wrong before you got married.
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you? Did she feel that you were the only option available? Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
She obviously isn't in love with you - and if she was jealous, I'd be OK with that, but this isn't jealousy. This is punishment.
Its obvious.
In fact, I don't know your wife, but I'd say she's very religious indeed, and maybe she is even mad at God for allowing her to get married.
If this is case, you need to say, that way I can give you the best advice. Im 110% sure that what Im saying is the reason.
If you seduced your wife before marriage, and she felt obliged to marry you because of it, or if you had sexual experiences that she didn't, she could feel hatred against you.
What you are enduring is pure hatred. I don't believe she has a mental problem. She has a spiritual problem.
Maybe she depended on God for marrying someone, and she ended up with you (not to make it sound bad against you) - and now she hates God for allowing her marriage to be with you. It could be for ANY of these reasons.
Women, who get married between 21 to 30, MAY feel their life is over at the point of marriage, and they could genuinely blame you for that. ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, i know - but if she had a good social life, and knew many friends, and was not sure about you, but depended on God to close this door with you, and it didn't close (i.e. you ended up getting married), she could hate you and God.
Ultimately, if what I'm saying is true, there are a few things you can do to help the situation:
a) Tell her that she decided , with her free will to marry you. Part of being an adult is that we are responsible for the decisions we make, and we don't take it out on others if we feel that we've made the wrong ones.
b) That she is assuming that she'd have found better than you - she doesn't know. She may have found worse.
I am pretty sure that when she sees the sacrifices you have given to calm her insecurities and her hatred, she will love you more. She IS the same girl you fell in love with, but marriage, at the wrong time, for some people, can produce bad results.
I would not talk about divorce yet or think this. Not at all.
But try to understand what is upsetting her. This is NOT the girl you married dude. She is definately not herself.
hi Zoxsasi, Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
she had all the freedom... I suggested to break off the engagement couple of time...but she was determined to promise that it will work Did she feel that you were the only option available? I don;\'t think she felt that way...she had 2 previous engagement...but i don't think this is a problem for her Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors? she probably hates me..she actually asked for divorce now afterI have lost my job...and off course she feels her luxurious world is collapsing...her constant accustation that I don't love enough..leaving my family..my friends..and focusing on the well being of the children...getting abused to always lose weight...and I don't love enough...telling me what to eat and where to work and what to do..and all that is not enough...even when we go to church ..if it is ever allawd ..i will be taling care of both kids..so she can enjoy the holy masss...and I don't love enough,,
OK.. I see. I understand now your situation perfectly well.
I'm just curious - what exactly about her did you like? What was one of the qualities that you married her for??
If she wants to divorce you because you have no work; its extremely arrogant of her, but if she does divorce you, you are innocent.
But tell me, what did you like? I mean, was it her personality? Her appearance? What did she like about you?
So, it seems that you were a total gentleman before marriage - but then im just curious as to why she chose you?
Thanks for your reply..when I meet her..I fpund that girl that is modetrate..not too outgoing..loves tasbeha.a member of the choir..close to God..we used to pray on the phone together..I thought this was a good way to find a good mother for my future chrisitan kids..finding someone like that in north america is rare. Naïve maybe..more of a fool now.even the differences as " I don't accept u going out alone with your friends..male friends..one social life"..the FOC has said all this will go away after marraige ..you havr to believe in the sacrement..I advice everyone the problem remian and maybe exponetially expand after the wedding
The reason why she married me: A) I treated her like a gentleman..when we are getting to know each other.I would got above and beyound to take care of her B) her patrents liked me and started to use me.fixing computers.giving advice.naïve I was I offered This is the bonus that one time somebody has mentioned to her how good of a catch I am My mom passed away..so there is no potential mother in law to suffer from as her previous engagement. Thanks for reading
Thank you for your spiritual concern and for reminding me that the excessive adjectives I am using are usually counter-productive, often even incomprehensible. Egypt born and educated friends have honestly told me they get lost in my excess descriptions and long, meandering sentences, and they have no idea what I am trying to say. I understand. There I go again. I am using these excesses because I am trying to be as complete and accurate as possible in defining my expressions and thoughts. I am futilely struggling to defeat, define and confine evil demonic, deceptive, dishonest feminism in words, its own game. I believe Charles Dickens said that there is no good writing, only good re-writing. Maybe I’ll eventually re-write some of these thoughts, if they ever seem to be useful.
Although some Coptic feminists slander me as hating women, this is just another self-serving, demonic feminist deception. Rather, their feminist beliefs and actions are rebellions and betrayals of their God created nature and purpose. I can’t repent and be forgiven for their disobedience to God and to their fathers and husbands. My repentence would be nonsence. It seems to be silly feminist propaganda that has convinced many obedient, God loving orthodox women (especially teens and young adults) that all women are (or should be) feminists. The Coptic and orthodox clergy have not published and/or taught clarifications of these demonic feminist confusions that are usually introduced by feminist or uncatechized Sunday school teachers, to Coptic youth and adults.
I don’t believe that I should seek forgiveness for criticizing a woman’s demonic feminism. I believe this would be disrespectful to God and His divine will. I have tried to avoid criticizing any woman, outside her demonic feminist intent or actions. I think these intents and actions make any woman (or man) inhuman as against their God created nature. Do you believe I should seek this forgiveness? Why? What Bible verses are you relying upon?
Yes, admirably, miracleseek has been very spiritually objective concerning the seeming demonic feminist sins and abuses of his wife. I would join miracleseek’s happiness to see his wife repent, confess to him for forgiveness, and reform from her seeming self-destructive addiction to demonic feminism and its manifestations. Hopefully the present conditions will be the low point of miracleseek’s experience with demonic feminism. He hasn’t really been in the fire, yet. I have seen too much deceptive demonic feminist family destruction to ever tell a concerned husband with early teen or younger children to trust a weak faithed, doubting, threatening or challenging, tending toward demonic feminism, or self-concerned wife. This is a warning to become as prepared for rebellion as possible. The strength of the husband’s preparation is an important measure of his family’s assured unity, when faced with this type of actual or potential rebellion.
After a brief, patriarchal counselling from our old Irish priest, my wife reasonably repented for filing her first secret divorce and returned to seeming happy family life for six years, until the new, modern catholic clergy went into their current demonic feminist/ freudian apostacy that is the shame of all so-called christianity. These demonic feminist/freudian priests and her secret divorce lawyer encouraged her to re-assert her demonic feminist rebellion against her husband and family.
I’m not sure that I understood your comment. If I haven’t answered your concern, please tell me in a different way, so that I get your point.
The irish do tend to talk a lot. Blany stone etc..Miracleseek is seeking peace I believe. My frist thought she was jealous because her needs were insecure ones. She is telling him what to do. I think women think they can treat men like they are other women. We're not. They relate to each other so well they are almost mindreaders to each other. I think that's why they get angry when they have to tell us men what our responsibities are. GOD put us together and the opposite needs alot of work to get together.
Now another option for you appears. Your wife doesn’t seem like a credible negotiation partner, but if the two of you can reach an agreement on your bankrupt property, and most important on the way you want to share the care and times with the children, it should be possible to have a non-contested, mutually agreed divorce. It is even possible to have a mutually agreed separation that both of you agree to take care of the children in an agreed way and go your separate ways otherwise. Either of these choices would be least expensive and most peaceful. Pray, Pray, Pray.
You should try to negotiate with her to see if anything peaceful is possible. Eventually, you’ll need at least one divorce/ bankruptcy attorney to see that you comply with the relevant laws. In the U.S., whenever the parents divorce, the state takes legal custody of the minor children and just gives the parents the rights and duties to support, care for and “visit” with them.
In every event, as soon as possible you should interview with divorce attorneys to see what the legal limits and hurdles are.
I’m going to be travelling for a week or so, so send me a PM for better chance of reply, if I may be able to help.
God bless you and your children. Try to visit with experienced divorced dads and divorce attorneys so that you protect your children as much as possible. Based on her abusive behavior, I wouldn’t trust your wife to be honest in negotiations with you. For the sake of your children, don’t let your guard down. Pray, Pray, Pray.
Hi irishpligrim, On forgiveness, it's a way to love your wife.
Your quotes in the Bible. Colossians 3:19 Husbands, love your wifes and be not bitter against them. Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wifes, even as Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it.
I apologize for passing your post. You have asked several questions that I want to take time to answer as thoroughly as possible. Some of the other responses were pretty caustic, even asking to lock the discussion, etc. I wanted to reply to these before they gathered too much steam.
Now I'm going to have to travel for a week or two, so it will be hard to keep up. I will try to provide an adequate answer as soon as possible.
I know you are trying to understand God's intention in the Holy Bible. However, I have not been able to find a patriarchal teacher in the Coptic Church since Anba Gregorios and he is not translaqted to English. I found one very patriarchal booklet on marriage by Anba Gregorios, in arabic, several years ago. I haven't been able to find a copy for several years. I suspect that the Coptic demonic feminists have removed all of the copies from the U.S. Coptic bookstores. I loaned my copy and I am told that it mysteriously disappeared. ?????? I'll be back in a short while. Pray for me.
I apologize for passing your post. You have asked several questions that I want to take time to answer as thoroughly as possible. Some of the other responses were pretty caustic, even asking to lock the discussion, etc. I wanted to reply to these before they gathered too much steam.
Now I'm going to have to travel for a week or two, so it will be hard to keep up. I will try to provide an adequate answer as soon as possible.
I know you are trying to understand God's intention in the Holy Bible. However, I have not been able to find a patriarchal teacher in the Coptic Church since Anba Gregorios and he is not translaqted to English. I found one very patriarchal booklet on marriage by Anba Gregorios, in arabic, several years ago. I haven't been able to find a copy for several years. I suspect that the Coptic demonic feminists have removed all of the copies from the U.S. Coptic bookstores. I loaned my copy and I am told that it mysteriously disappeared. ?????? I'll be back in a short while. Pray for me.
I await your reply. The prayers of the saints be with you.
I am not aware of, nor can I imagine any attempt to bring all scriptural passages that are relevant to God’s family and gender commandments together into one consolidated text. God is patriarchal. Every authentic “jot and tittle” of His Holy Bible is patriarchal. What purpose would this repetitive listing serve, other than distracting from, or diluting the general patriarchal paradigm and context of specific passages and of the entire Holy Bible itself? I agree that, without any contemporary orthodox teachers of God’s patriarchal gender and family commandments (except a seemingly endless line of opposing proponents of deceptive, dishonest demonic feminist/ freudian propaganda) the study and understanding of God’s unchangeable patriarchal spiritual order is frustrating and requires a lot of committed study time and effort. As I recall, I started by skimming through St. Paul’s epistles in study bibles which included cross references to related verses. This gave me a listing of some relevant verses. Comparison of the verses shows congruity. I had been a long time Irish Catholic at that time, so I read through Augustine’s commentaries on those verses and through seemingly related Papal Encyclicals and older marriage texts. I found that encyclicals and marriage texts after about 1920 were becoming increasingly anti-patriarchal and feminist. I obtained the clearest insight into the tactics of epidemic contemporary Catholic demonic feminism in the seemingly God blessed writings of the spirited Irish-American journalist/ writer, Donna (Corcoran-Merrigan) Steichen, entitled Ungodly Rage: The Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism. Mrs. Steichen has devoted her life to researching and reporting the seeming take-over of Catholic education by Catholic demonic feminist/ homosexual/ freudian/ Wiccan/ New Age/ goddess influences. Feminist/ goddess theology/ thealogy is epidemic in all of the so-called christian churches. The education policies of the Coptic Church seem to now be developing a similar demonic feminist paradigm. Also similar to the growth of Catholic demonic feminism, etc., Mother Irini’s women’s monastery and feminist scholar, Nelli van Doorn-Harder seem to be close to the Coptic demonic feminist central command. Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world. 1Peter 5:8-9. After leaving Rome, primarily for these reasons, I found my way to the seeming mountain top, the blessed orthodox patriarchal writings of St. John Chrysostom and the other Holy Orthodox Fathers. For an Orthodox understanding of specific passages and theological principles, we have to give first consideration to the long standing and deeply studied explanations that our Holy Orthodox Church Fathers have passed down to us through our immediate orthodox forefathers. How will this demonic feminist apostate orthodox church generation pass on these traditions? Are they lost in this generation of apostate Orthodox leadership, clergy, teachers, parents and even the responders to this discussion? I also understand that the commentaries of the Holy Fathers are usually based on actual theological disputes/inquiries; and are generally not based on isolated imaginary, hypothetical examples as you seem to have a tendency to rely upon. By macho, do you include the liturgical Coptic “deaconate,” that I have heard aged to pubescent Coptic demonic feminists criticize? This exclusively Coptic liturgical spiritual masculinization of Coptic young men should be righteously envied by the entire, so called, christian world (yes, including the demonic feminist WCC). Do you consider miracleseek’s wife’s “machaness” to be a justified “trigger” of divorce? Of course, Satan is still on the prowl. Orthodox demonic feminist “altar girls,” priestesses, bishopesses, and even matriarchs, anyone? A proud Coptic feminist in this discussion has boasted, and thereby somewhat slandered St. Mary, that decadent (post Flood, post Sodom, post Egyptian exile, post leprous Miriam, post wilderness rebellions, post painful second circumcision, post God prohibited foreign marriages, etc.) Israel had a ruling prophetess. I mentioned above that St. Chrysostom noted that Eve briefly seized “world” rule once; and ruined all.
Most replies have slanderously speculated, just as you have, that I sin in excusing many cases of husband caused adultery and physical abuse. What do these fabricated demonic feminism’s “red herring” issues have to do with miracleseek’s struggles? I have tried to warn miracleseek and all men with marriages to or relationships of any kind with Orthodox demonic feminists, for the sake of their children and family, to carefully avoid being provoked into any type of threatening or physical confrontations. I don’t believe the issue of adultery has been mentioned, except that by a wife, in regard to St. Chrysostom’s commentary on the passage you introduced, above. You haven’t provided us with any information regarding your close experience with any actual divorce cases. In fact, how much actual divorce experience do you detect that any of the responders to this discussion have had? I don’t recall that any responder has based his advice to miracleseek on any actual relevant personal experience. Is this your criteria for valid crucial family jeopardy counselling credibility? As I have said above, all of the Coptic divorces involving minor children that I have observed in the Houston/Dallas areas in the past 15 years have been motivated by the rebellious Coptic demonic feminist wife, with no apparent public disapproval by the relevant Coptic communities, clergy and leadership. I don’t judge sins, but it seems that serious continuing sins could be involved against the spouses, families and children in these cases. I’ve been interested, but have never heard of, nor detected, any signs of repentence to their victims by any of these betraying demonic feminists/ clergy. It seems that the orthodox demonic feminist rebellion goes on and on and on, seeking inevitable moral parity with the general demonic Western culture. Of course, sadly, there are no relevant admonishing sermons to encourage healing repentence by these pathetic women/ clergy. Just more demonic feminist encouragement and festering of another divorce destroyed young orthodox family. St. Paul’s counsel regarding the somewhat related family immorality issue in 1Cor. 5 would seem to contain some suggested righteous admonition/ counsel to our orthodox bishops, clergy and communities in response to the relevant evil fruits of “modern” demonic feminism/ divorce.
The Holy Bible describes the essential features of a God pleasing, patriarchal marriage. As we’ve discussed above, the eternal bases for God’s patriarchal order for righteous marriage are: Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Gen. 2:18; and, To the woman (the helper created by Lord God) He (Lord God) said, “... you desire to rule your husband, but he is to rule over you.” Gen. 3:16b.
It is the Orthodox Christian Tradition that Jesus Christ directly taught His Apostles the eternal theological truths and understandings that they in turn passed on to us in their traditional Apostolic teachings and writings regarding the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible. Saints Peter and Paul are the primary Apostolic teachers of Jesus Christ’s commandments and principles concerning Christian marriage, family and gender order and relationships.
Your beliefs are not clearly stated. Do you believe that all of God’s Word has a patriarchal paradigm? If not, which Bible verses do you rely upon for your seemingly confident questioning of the general Biblical patriarchal perogatives?
According to St. Paul, the basic features of Christian marriage are reasonably described as follows:
Ephesians 5.22-33 [22] Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. [23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. [24] As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. [25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, [26] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, [27] that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. [28] Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. [29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, [30] because we are members of his body. [31] "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." [32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; [33] however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5338807.
St. John Chrysostom’s Homily XX on Ephesians 5.22-33 provides an in depth explanation of this vital Apostolic outline of the order and practice of christian marriage. One crucial excerpt from St. Chrysostom’s homily clearly explains why the strict observance of God’s specified gender and role order is vital in order for a family challenged in the world to maintain spiritual and practical unity, in adversity, is the following: Hence he places the one (wife) in subjection, and the other (husband) in authority, that there may be peace; for where there is equal authority there can never be peace; neither where a house is a democracy, nor where all are rulers; but the ruling power must of necessity be one.http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.iii.iv.xxi.html. NPNF, Series 1, Vol. 13, p.147, line 4.
Jesus Christ’s personally chosen patriarchal leader of the Apostles is St. Peter. In this role, out of loving concern for his persecuted flock, St. Peter wrote down, with slightly more clarity, to the churches of the general diaspora, the same basic principles of family order as St. Paul wrote to the Ephesians. These verses comprise the Catholic Epistle reading at many daily and Sunday Coptic Divine Liturgies. I have never heard an admonishing sermon based upon or in reference to these preeminently vital patriarchal family commandments.
1 Peter 2.18-3.7 [18]Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing. [19] For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering unjustly. [20] For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God's approval. [21] For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. [22] He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. [23] When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly. [24] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. [25] For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
1Pet. 3.1-7 [1]Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, [2] when they see your reverent and chaste behavior. [3] Let not yours be the outward adorning with braiding of hair, decoration of gold, and wearing of fine clothing, [4] but let it be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable jewel of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. [5] So once the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves and were submissive to their husbands, [6] as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are now her children if you do right and let nothing terrify you. [7]Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered. http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5489323.
Ephesians verse 5:24 specifies that a wife is to be obedient to her husband’s authority in everything. This seems to clearly invest any husband with the God given authority to make all of the decisions you note, if he so chooses. It also seems that any wife’s objection to these decisions by her husband would be sin against his God given authority over her.
It isn’t clear to me what your intent is by your choice of the word “dominated.” What scripture verse is your reference for the choice of this seemingly loaded term?
I don’t understand your confusion in regard to miracleseek’s wife’s seemingly rebellious actions against God’s commandments regarding her witnessed Coptic marriage liturgy’s imposed role and duty of obedience to her husband. As I’ve expressed too many times, it seems that she and all other orthodox feminists that I have witnessed are demonically influenced to intentionally disobey their husbands, and thereby intentionally disobey various of God’s clear family and gender commandments. How do you understand it, differently?
Pray for miracleseek’s family, Pray for our Orthodox leaders, Pray for me. God bless you.
Having read your posts here as well as on coptichymns, I can safely say that it comes as no surprise that you are divorced. You are a vile misogynist and what self respecting woman would ever want to be with a creature such as yourself. I feel sorry for your ex-wife for having had to deal with you. Everything you write is demonic, deceptive and dishonest. You know nothing about Orthodoxy or God, as St. John says, 'If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?' (1 John 4:20) and again 'But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.' (1 John 2:11).
God is not patriarchal and the notion is completely laughable. The Middle Eastern culture may be patriarchal but that does not extend to God. This is clear in the dealings of Christ with the women of His time. He tore down the concept of a patriarchal worldview repeatedly. The case of the woman with the issue of blood, the case of the Samaritan woman, the case of the Canaanite woman (need I go on?).
It is clear to me that you have a long way to go in truly understanding what Orthodoxy is, and, quite frankly, I'm disgusted that you have been welcomed into the Orthodox Church when you hold so much hatred for the opposite sex. Orthodoxy is a precious pearl that should not be cast before swine such as yourself.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11418.msg140647#msg140647 date=1309548050] Why is a patriarchal point of view the same as hatred of women? I don't believe it is at all.
I never said it was. I'm saying that if a person has an innate hatred of women, they can use a patriarchal point of view to spread the hatred.
Another well written post, indeed. Thoughtful and filled with powerful language. However, you did not answer most of my questions or address my main concern: What will this male-dominated (that is the appropriate term, like it or not) marriage look like, practically, in the 21st century?
Give me some examples/scenarios of a wife being submissive to her husband. . .how far does the submission go?
They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. In your case 'Retarded' you are just pathetic. You have no personality of your own and so copy an already existing profile. That is beyond lame, and just prove that you are nothing. You are nobody. I just hope the moderators/administrators will take appropriate action in either editing your profile or completely removing it for being a troll.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11418.msg140662#msg140662 date=1309560410] + Irini nem ehmot,
They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. In your case 'Retarded' you are just pathetic. You have no personality of your own and so copy an already existing profile. That is beyond lame, and just prove that you are nothing. You are nobody. I just hope the moderators/administrators will take appropriate action in either editing your profile or completely removing it for being a troll.
Cephas, you should quote next time! Retarded, edited his posts (which I never saw) so you seem unnecessarily harsh in your comments.
While I still have the content of the posts, the quote function would not have illustrated how he copied my entire profile (name, picture and signature). My comments still stand and I'll add that 'Retarded' is also a spineless coward.
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11418.msg140690#msg140690 date=1309614798] + Irini nem ehmot,
Unworthy1,
While I still have the content of the posts, the quote function would not have illustrated how he copied my entire profile (name, picture and signature). My comments still stand and I'll add that 'Retarded' is also a spineless coward.
Oh, i thought you were name calling, but then i realized retarded changed his name, LOL.
I just tried to re-read the demonic dialogue of Hegelian consensus between Joshuaa and Xoxsasi that is the basis of your respectful June 14/15, 2011 responses. Although they seem to have taken an undefined circuitous route and seemed to have agreed that your wife’s disability is spiritual, I don’t believe that they stated any authoritative references for their determinations. In fact I couldn’t find any recognizable spiritual marriage principles from the Holy Bible in their words. Their reasoning seemed like atheistic psycho-babble to me. I wish they had provided their Scriptural and/or peer-reviewed spiritual references/ cross index so that we could understand their terms and review the works of their spiritual authorities. With specific cash conditions, I can agree with their counsel. If Zoxsasi (or together they) would provide a $100,000.00 cash deposit to you, to enable you to obtain the most skilled and effective local divorce attorney for you and your children on very short emergency notice, I would agree with Zoxsasi’s advice to not talk or think about divorce yet. That would seem to be a very convincing statistical exception to my caution to immediately prepare to defend against a demonic feminist divorce. They both, and some other responders, seem to agree on some nebulous set of private, secret, occult religious principles involving (Joshuaa) jealousy, insecurity, feel good, non-judgmental, feelings, soundings, acceptance, reflected feelings, lose yourself, you are who (or Who) you are, “I am Who (God) I am.,” your territory (her territory?), be assertive, provoke her to anger, get back yours, she and her parents will stop being free-loaders on your broad back, Praise Her, Praise Her. Her raging rebellion needs more confidence. (When we’re done, you’ll pray for her return to this current status.)
I (Zoxsasi) agree, BUT, this is the problem: she wants to punish you (more?); she believes in God; she hates God; (guilty, guilty, shame, shame) YOU may have done something wrong (this is the freudian Hook that entraps feminists’ husbands to pay for demonic bogus “marriage” counselling/ husband/ God bashing fees); her freedom; you didn’t give her another chance for other suitors (sleep around? hook-up? get high?); she isn’t in love with you; this isn’t jealousy; this is punishment; I don’t know your wife; I’d say she is very religious; maybe she is even mad at God; I’m 110% sure (prophetic?) I’m right; [now lets get down and dirty (into pure freudian kinky sex)], first the facts; then the illusions and dreams; she has a spiritual problem; maybe she (mistakenly) depended upon God; it could be for ANY of these reasons; (now for some atheistic scientific certainty) women who get married between 21 and 30 MAY feel ... ; ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, I know (Excuse me, ladies, that sounds patriarchal, but is this pseudo-scientific statement also feministically politically correct?); (I repeat) don’t depend upon God; if what I’m saying is true (I doubt it, but you shouldn’t); Tell her ... (?); Part of being an adult is that we are responsible ...; she doesn’t know (?); I wouldn’t talk or think about divorce (where can I send my cash divorce attorney fee bond?); (Remember, in fact I don’t know your wife), but try harder to understand her, you married someone else (does she have a wicked twin sister?), etc.
Come on, guys, stop playing demonic psychotic torture mind games with miracleseek and his beloved innocent children. His wife’s demonic divorcing feminist behavior follows that of the current and previous generations of her family destroying feminist sisters, right down the line. What else is reasonable? No sincere alternative nor admonishing Holy Orthodox marriage principles seem to have been taught in the Coptic and other western Orthodox jurisdictions for about two generations. The protestant, catholic, orthodox and general population sexual, family and recreational immorality seem to be rapidly tending to statistical parity.
Believe me, miracleseek, if you and your children get ambushed by a typical contemporary Coptic demonic feminist’s divorce, that you refused to reasonably prepare for, as well as you reasonably can (spiritually, emotionally and legally), you will probably not feel innocent for the remainder of your life with (or without) your children. You will not be innocent, but somewhat irresponsible. All of the “road signs” are there. DANGER AHEAD. The road is not fun, but narrow and very difficult, that leads to light. As I have mentioned, your unemployment and bankruptcy could be the blessings God has prepared for you and your children, in many ways. He will provide for your needs. Seriously consider legally dumping the dead weights. You can always lovingly provide them the support that God urges, as He provides.
Joshuaa and Zoxsasi, please stop playing secretive, occult, gnostic word games with us. I have the impression that this is a Coptic Orthodox site. Shouldn’t spiritual discussions here use terms and concepts of traditional Coptic (or at least of traditional Orthodox Christian) theology and spirituality; or interpret terms and concepts of other religions or spiritualities, if possible, into descriptions related to the Holy Bible? Each religion/ spirituality has its own terms and definitions of its terms, to serve its own interests. For instance, I believe that atheistic freudianism and atheistic feminism have traditionally sought disingenous credibility as reasonable spiritual alternatives to traditional orthodox christianity. I, naively, understand that the term psychology, means study/ science of the soul. Isn’t Freud an atheist? What is the agreed or alternative freudian definition of the soul? Open, peer-reviewed references, only, please. As I noted above, some of your statements seem contradictory to me. You don’t seem to intend to be self-contradictory. I would have more confidence in your spiritual credibility if you specified the texts, and their authors, of the spiritual concepts and definitions that your marriage counselling to miracleseek and his children rely upon. I have had similar difficulty understanding and accepting the so-called Coptic marriage/family counselling lectures that I have attended or heard that were presented by Pope Shenouda, Bishops Youssef,Angeallos, and Rofael, and Coptic priests of the Southern Diocese. So far as I know, only Bishop Angeallos’ lecture on Coptic feminism has been transcribed (probably by self-serving Coptic demonic feminists). As I have noted at another time, the U.S. Greek Orthodox acquiescense to demonic feminism seems to now be several degrees more openly diabolical than the Coptic version. Several years ago, I attended a “marriage” conference at the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Houston. The parish priest opened the conference by introducing the mercenary Greek Orthodox divorce lawyers and freudian “marriage” counsellors who were to present the program. The priest pointed out the Greek advantage of “freedom” to divorce and remarry, to attending Catholics, and invited all attendees to have personal conferences with the presenters at their private booths. The seasoned Greek pastor at the Greek Orthodox Church in Cincinnatti interrupted the Lenten Bible study that I attended to assure the constantly whinning feminists that there are no legitimate theological bases to prevent ordination of women as Christian Orthodox priests. I believe that prominent Greek Orthodox bishop, Kallistos Ware, has assured the demonic feminist WCC’s officials (and young Coptic demonic feminist monastic candidates) of his agreement with the same demonic feminist theological speculation.
Maybe Satan’s feminist sisters are finally going to obtain their retribution against God for expecting their obedience as a helper.
Re: your 110615 Yes, sometimes, some Irish may talk too much. Some even realize that the (Coptic trained) Irish monks saved Civilization in the last Dark Age. I can’t imagine a more logical spiritual/ philosophical salvation team, for that time. I don’t see any possibility that the Irish will carry their share this next time. And, the Copts seem to be slipping. What are the signs of a current civilization worth saving? Without God united families? I have never kissed the Blarney Stone, but I will try to hang head down and do it right, if God ever gives me an opportunity. Then all of the gall that you now imagine will be pleasing to everyone, like big, fresh, juicy ripe dates, dipped in honey. Let’s then see if the sour puss shrews can resist that re-packaging of patriarchal theology.
As I have related several times, St. John Chrysostom (golden-mouthed lover of St. Paul) destroyed the main current demonic mercenary freudian scam against families’ peace about 1450 years before atheist, cocaine addict Freud was born. Chrysostom’s earthy explanation of another crucial reason (God had clearly ordered it to be so, in the beginning) (would freudians dare to claim this as psychology? No, of course not, there is no endless “counselling” fees for this true peace!) for God’s patriarchal gender order is: Hence he places the one (wife) in subjection, and the other (husband) in authority, that there may be peace; for where there is equal authority there can never be peace; neither where a house is a democracy, nor where all are rulers; but the ruling power must of necessity be one.http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.iii.iv.xxi.html. NPNF, Series 1, Vol. 13, p.147, line 4.
There is no other possibility for even short term relaxed, comfortable, trusting, true community peace. Devisive demonic freudians/ feminists can’t seek true peace, but only temporary accommodation, through intimidation, insults, compromise, consensus, trade-offs, bribes, misrepresentations, fabrications, persuasion, (thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis), etc.. Why would Orthodox demonic feminists, freudians and clergy be illogically intransigent in support of women’s unnatural, so-called, equal rights? Would it be to please that same old devisive Satan? Or, to please our peace loving, Father God, who made us, in order, in His image? All of Satan’s allies lust for war at some level. It gives them a demonic illusion to pleasures of greed, importance, busyness, power, control, etc. Of course all of these heretics exercise their own illegitimate agendas very patriarchially (uncompromisingly), in order to obstruct the exercise of a husband’s legitimate God given patriarchal authority in his family.
The rebelleous, confused, buffeted, blundering, sinning women (miracleseek’s wife, etc.) are to be pitied. They refuse to repent and seek forgiveness. They don’t seem to be able to consider that their disobedience is against God, against their micro and macro liturgical community, against their duty to their children and against their God-given husband. It seems that a Satan inspired excuse seems to be that the leaders of all of the so-called christian churches (especially our own so-called Orthodox churches) ruthlessly seek to destroy the God ordained, Apostolic designed, holy patriarchal family peace plan that enabled incomparable world wide, believer family based expansion for about 1950 years, since the Apostles. In its place, these so-called leaders are arrogantly experimenting with an elitist, secretive, unproven, undefined, cocaine addicted atheist’s demonic, pseudo-scientific, pseudo-spiritual, mercenary, long proven to be faith and family destroying, financial extortion based scam/ scheme, that by its nature, never leaves any participants (except its mercenary facilitators) peacefully satisfied. Repentance to God and to our victims, unilaterally washes away all of the undefined symptoms you guys have been speculating about.
It seems that if we are having about any level of mutually open conversation about mutually interested subjects, we can all read the other’s mind, somewhat. Demonic feminists seem to have similar secret and open personal agendas, so with a few words or expressions they should pretty well know their “fellow travellers.” As in some cases, some seem to have developed a very deep level of seeming demonic secrecy. You may have read Scott Peck’s, People of the Lie, his sort of new-age, micro and macro interest in these demons in his futile effort to “spiritualize” psychiatry several years ago. I surmise that he “got the message” from his peers and reformed in order to keep his lucrative “counselling the rich” credentials. So much for so-called professional (pseudo) semi-christian counselling.
Didn’t God put men and women together on His own, very specific, patriarchal conditions? “I will make HIM a HELPER fit for HIM.” And after her seeming first rebellion. “(H)e SHALL RULE OVER you.” Where do demonic feminist women obtain any claim of spiritual authority over their fathers/husbands? Is it from Satan? Who else could it be from? Is God still sufficient to deal with this latest rebellion, in His own time? Where do you see that God’s scheme requires any “work” from anyone outside the couple that God has united? She works toward becoming his perfectly obedient helper, in everything. He works toward becoming a God pleasing family ruler. Neither is perfect. They both have God given spirits to lead each of them to repentence and forgiveness when they offend God and/or each other. God always forgives sincere repentence. Shouldn’t we always seek to repent and forgive? What else is necessary? Repeated family relevant pastoral and community scriptural catechesis. The obvious currently missing necessary ingredient.
Re: your 110616
Thank you, yes, of course forgiveness is crucial in all of our relationships. But, I think you may be a little off target in regard to miracleseek’s situation. It seems to me that the main issues here are his wife’s arrogant disrespect, disobedience and combative rebellion. Miracleseek has mentioned several times that she justifies her misbehavior by the typically demonic feminist charge that he “doesn’t love her enough.” I would say she could have easily picked up this demonically illogical hypocritical excuse from any one of many recent Coptic demonic feminist husband bashing teachers, including Pope Shenouda, and all of the Coptic clerical and freudian speakers that I have heard. I guess that you may also have been propagandized against God’s overwhelmingly clear general patriarchal perogatives, by the general Coptic loud, rude, raging demonic feminist scourge- that has seemingly brought Pope Shenouda and his entire synod under demonic silence and obedience to Coptic demonic feminism.
I rudely believe that your Bible references are intentionally deceptively dishonestly given out of their God given context. Especially in relation to our challenge to help miracleseek. The context of the feminist favored verses you have quoted are as follows:
Colossians 3:18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
In our discussion, I can see some basis for her repentence here. I don’t think miracleseek would need your demonic feminist husband bashing implications to respond in forgiveness to her repentence.
Are you sure that you read my response. I can understand that you may not have been able to spend enough time to note all of my points. I reviewed your post dated 6/12/11 again and I believe that I covered all of your points as well as I can.
I don’t believe that God’s commandments and counsels from the original texts (which our popular ante 1960-70, English bible versions reasonably provide) of the entire Word of God in the Holy Bible are temporal/ temporary/ transient/ culturally sensitive in different times to different generations of God’s people, etc. (I haven’t studied these bible authenticity issues recently and I don’t believe they are germane to miracleseek’s questions, so I will leave this issue alone.) I’ve mentioned earlier that we have to be aware of the demonic feminist alterations to the Holy Bible and Patristic commentaries (especially Chrysostom) since about 1960. All of the contexturally relevant gender and family commandments (and St. Chrysostom’s commentaries that we have discussed) apply to our generation and also to Orthodox christians in 3011, just as they applied to Adam and Eve, to Abraham and Sarah, to St. Peter and his wife, to St. Mary, to the Samaritan woman’s families, to St. Phillip the evangelist’s family, to St. Chrysostom’s parish families in about 400 AD, to the generations of persecuted Coptic and Irish christian families, and, of course, to our families today.
I have tried to the best of my obviously limited ability and personal experiences to provide you with the scriptural and patristic gender and family provisions that seem to me to be relevant to miracleseek’s gender and family difficulties. I think that I have told you that I don’t have any interest or time, now, to speculate on esoteric, abstruse speculative modern/ freudian alternatives to the orthodox patriarchal marriage model that has served God’s people through all of Satan’s challenges since the beginning. Frankly, I believe that your seeming attempts to devise an experimental modern model of marriage that will satisfy the pathetic atheistic, demonic, feminist, freudian critics of God’s proven patriarchal model is scandalous folly. Remember, the road is difficult and those who follow it are few. 50-60% of current marriages incur at least one formal divorce. At least that same proportion of the undivorced probably barely tolerate each other and are too poor or too drunk to divorce. Demonic, so-called orthodox marriages, are going with the flow. There is no official/ community alternative source of patriarchal catechesis.
If you are truly interested in modern working models of successful patriarchal marriages, I’m certain that you’ll be able to eventually find an example or two in your orthodox community. Of course this takes time, tact, openness and patience. This experience is similar to the incidental miracles that pop-up repeatedly in all of our orthodox churches. I have no doubts that God is patriarchally enforcing His marriage, gender and family commandments in the same manner. Keep struggling, assurance will come. It has been a long, prosperous, distracting dry spell for most of us in the U.S.
If these most important issues are of interest to you, I suggest that you work your way through all of St. Chrysostom’s commentaries in the NPNF series that I have linked to several times. I think this will help you overcome the demonic feminist cultural exegesis heresy that seems to have you hooked. I hope that you’ll then be able to see that the fundamental nature of all of the relevant demons and humans that Chrysostom deals with seem to be just like those we now encounter every day. If Satan and his demons stay the same and he convinces you to cut him (and his sweet feminists) some scriptural slack, do you think you have pleased our immutable eternal God? Or do you also adjust God’s patriarchal ruling nature to be manipulable with a cute wiggle and giggle?
We obviously have differing definitions of your term male dominated. We’re speaking different languages, without mutual understanding. Don’t let the demonic feminists and freudians further compromise your spirit with this garbage. In a Godly marriage, the husband’s rule should not require any domination because his wife’s complete, selfless holy obedience seeks out the HELP he needs/ wants and desires to provide it. . No overt action may be required by him. A more highly refined example of an exceptionally obedient “good wife” is described in Proverbs 31:10-31. With the present seemingly complete lack of orthodox patriarchal marriage, gender and family understanding and catechesis, it seems self-evident, just from this discussion, that even those serious, sincere orthodox young women who desire a holy marriage are now being obstructed from even making the inquiry by the domination of their clergy and community by bullying, raging, screaming, insolent demonic feminists from their own families and communities. They seem to have even muzzled all of the orthodox patriarchs, bishops and clergy of this age. Where is a lone voice, like St. Athanasius, like St. Mark of Ephesis? Are all of these jurisdictions hiding secret sex scandals (known and used best by the demonic feminists), similar to the Catholics’? What’s up? The features of Miracleseek’s wife’s rebellion are typical for demonic feminists’ rebellions against sacramental marriages for the two generations that patriarchal marriage catechesis has been abandoned by the Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs and clergy. Shame??
Thank you for your reasonably precise summary of demonic feminist and freudian morals, thealogy and ethics. I couldn’t have imagined a more complete picture. God is so great. And I just finished rereading the account of Balaam’s ass. Numbers 22:1-35.
I hope you will soon erase any of our doubts of your credibility with complete factual, peer reviewed and scriptural references so that we can discuss your popular points of view more fully.
Recent posts may provide you with some insight concerning your consideration whether to subject yourself to non-orthodox, secular bible study/ comparitive religion courses.
The first five courses that you listed are defined as modern criticisms, which directly implies that they are criticisms of our traditional apostolic, patristic orthodoxy. You can also be pretty well assured that all of these courses offered by a secular university will most probably have demonic feminist objectives, which diametrically oppose a traditional orthodox patriarchal paradigm, in order to accomodate the general feminist demands of secular women (and men) faculty and students. If your orthodox formation is not exceptionally strong, these courses would be somewhat a danger to your orthodox faith formation. If your orthodox formation is very confident, these courses would not seem to be of any reasonable benefit.
The sixth course, Christianity in the Patristic Period, should directly address the early history of our apostolic orthodox churches. However, the course could primarily be a “modern” criticism of the origins of orthodox christianity. A review of the course texts may clarify its objectives. The setting of this course should be about 500-1000 years before major Roman Catholic perversions and about 1500 years before Protestant innovations. This course could be of some background value to your orthodox development. The course should especially be an opportunity to study some of the works of our early Orthodox Holy Fathers and of their opponents.
You may also want to give consideration to the content of recent posts that seem relevant to your questions and orthodox formation. In response to your post, Cephas has proudly noted that a similar course was a great learning experience for him. This seems curiously revealing to me because he has recently submitted, without providing any requested factual, peer-reviewed and scriptural support and authorities; puzzling, seemingly clairvoyant, self-condemning, summaries of his prophetic, moral, freudian and orthodox thealogical beliefs and practices, as follows:
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140644#msg140644 date=1309546412] + Irini nem ehmot,
Having read your posts here as well as on coptichymns, I can safely say that it comes as no surprise that you are divorced. You are a vile misogynist and what self respecting woman would ever want to be with a creature such as yourself. I feel sorry for your ex-wife for having had to deal with you. Everything you write is demonic, deceptive and dishonest. You know nothing about Orthodoxy or God, as St. John says, 'If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?' (1 John 4:20) and again 'But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.' (1 John 2:11).
God is not patriarchal and the notion is completely laughable. The Middle Eastern culture may be patriarchal but that does not extend to God. This is clear in the dealings of Christ with the women of His time. He tore down the concept of a patriarchal worldview repeatedly. The case of the woman with the issue of blood, the case of the Samaritan woman, the case of the Canaanite woman (need I go on?).
It is clear to me that you have a long way to go in truly understanding what Orthodoxy is, and, quite frankly, I'm disgusted that you have been welcomed into the Orthodox Church when you hold so much hatred for the opposite sex. Orthodoxy is a precious pearl that should not be cast before swine such as yourself.
and
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140650#msg140650 date=1309549698] + Irini nem ehmot,
Father bless!
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11418.msg140647#msg140647 date=1309548050] Why is a patriarchal point of view the same as hatred of women? I don't believe it is at all.
I never said it was. I'm saying that if a person has an innate hatred of women, they can use a patriarchal point of view to spread the hatred.
and
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140662#msg140662 date=1309560410] + Irini nem ehmot,
They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. In your case 'Retarded' you are just pathetic. You have no personality of your own and so copy an already existing profile. That is beyond lame, and just prove that you are nothing. You are nobody. I just hope the moderators/administrators will take appropriate action in either editing your profile or completely removing it for being a troll.
and
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140690#msg140690 date=1309614798] + Irini nem ehmot,
Unworthy1,
While I still have the content of the posts, the quote function would not have illustrated how he copied my entire profile (name, picture and signature). My comments still stand and I'll add that 'Retarded' is also a spineless coward.
Do these reckless statements represent the beliefs and practices you seek to develop?
It has been over three weeks since July 1, 2011, when you posted your seemingly raging, totally dishonest, heretical, and slanderous post in this topic. Without any specific references, your post misrepresented to Father Patrick and to the other readers regarding my personal relationships and regarding my personal family relationships. Your post generally lied about and demonically mocked the revealed divine nature of our jealous (patriarchal) Holy Creator God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your post lied by making self-serving misrepresentations of patriarchal Holy Bible passages out of their true spiritual context. Your post also blatantly misrepresented the traditional nature, beliefs, morals and pastoral practices of our Holy Apostolic Orthodox Christian Church and of our Holy Orthodox Fathers.
On July 4, and July 9, 2011, I posted; in this topic and in other topics where you were expressing your seemingly personal beliefs, theological speculations and often demeaning persuasions; respectful invitations for you to demonstrate the truth and credibility of your critical personal, spiritual and social insults, speculations and fabrications against me and my family, against God's Holy Word and against the traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church.
Quoted relevant excerpts from this topic are as follows:
Posted by: irishpilgrim Insert Quote the_least,
Recent posts may provide you with some insight concerning your consideration whether to subject yourself to non-orthodox, secular bible study/ comparitive religion courses.
The first five courses that you listed are defined as modern criticisms, which directly implies that they are criticisms of our traditional apostolic, patristic orthodoxy. You can also be pretty well assured that all of these courses offered by a secular university will most probably have demonic feminist objectives, which diametrically oppose a traditional orthodox patriarchal paradigm, in order to accomodate the general feminist demands of secular women (and men) faculty and students. If your orthodox formation is not exceptionally strong, these courses would be somewhat a danger to your orthodox faith formation. If your orthodox formation is very confident, these courses would not seem to be of any reasonable benefit.
The sixth course, Christianity in the Patristic Period, should directly address the early history of our apostolic orthodox churches. However, the course could primarily be a “modern” criticism of the origins of orthodox christianity. A review of the course texts may clarify its objectives. The setting of this course should be about 500-1000 years before major Roman Catholic perversions and about 1500 years before Protestant innovations. This course could be of some background value to your orthodox development. The course should especially be an opportunity to study some of the works of our early Orthodox Holy Fathers and of their opponents.
You may also want to give consideration to the content of recent posts that seem relevant to your questions and orthodox formation. In response to your post, Cephas has proudly noted that a similar course was a great learning experience for him. This seems curiously revealing to me because he has recently submitted, without providing any requested factual, peer-reviewed and scriptural support and authorities; puzzling, seemingly clairvoyant, self-condemning, summaries of his prophetic, moral, freudian and orthodox thealogical beliefs and practices, as follows:
Quote from: ????? on July 01, 2011, 01:53:32 PM + Irini nem ehmot,
Having read your posts here as well as on coptichymns, I can safely say that it comes as no surprise that you are divorced. You are a vile misogynist and what self respecting woman would ever want to be with a creature such as yourself. I feel sorry for your ex-wife for having had to deal with you. Everything you write is demonic, deceptive and dishonest. You know nothing about Orthodoxy or God, as St. John says, 'If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?' (1 John 4:20) and again 'But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.' (1 John 2:11).
God is not patriarchal and the notion is completely laughable. The Middle Eastern culture may be patriarchal but that does not extend to God. This is clear in the dealings of Christ with the women of His time. He tore down the concept of a patriarchal worldview repeatedly. The case of the woman with the issue of blood, the case of the Samaritan woman, the case of the Canaanite woman (need I go on?).
It is clear to me that you have a long way to go in truly understanding what Orthodoxy is, and, quite frankly, I'm disgusted that you have been welcomed into the Orthodox Church when you hold so much hatred for the opposite sex. Orthodoxy is a precious pearl that should not be cast before swine such as yourself.
and
Quote from: ????? on July 01, 2011, 02:48:18 PM + Irini nem ehmot,
Father bless!
Quote from: Father Peter on July 01, 2011, 02:20:50 PM Why is a patriarchal point of view the same as hatred of women? I don't believe it is at all.
I never said it was. I'm saying that if a person has an innate hatred of women, they can use a patriarchal point of view to spread the hatred.
and
Quote from: ????? on July 01, 2011, 05:46:50 PM + Irini nem ehmot,
They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. In your case 'Retarded' you are just pathetic. You have no personality of your own and so copy an already existing profile. That is beyond lame, and just prove that you are nothing. You are nobody. I just hope the moderators/administrators will take appropriate action in either editing your profile or completely removing it for being a troll.
and
Quote from: ????? on July 02, 2011, 08:53:18 AM + Irini nem ehmot,
Unworthy1,
While I still have the content of the posts, the quote function would not have illustrated how he copied my entire profile (name, picture and signature). My comments still stand and I'll add that 'Retarded' is also a spineless coward.
Do these reckless statements represent the beliefs and practices you seek to develop?
Thank you for your reasonably precise summary of demonic feminist and freudian morals, thealogy and ethics. I couldn’t have imagined a more complete picture. God is so great. And I just finished rereading the account of Balaam’s ass. Numbers 22:1-35.
I hope you will soon erase any of our doubts of your credibility with complete factual, peer reviewed and scriptural references so that we can discuss your popular points of view more fully.
Cephas, your seeming attempts to authenticate and support your points of view with rational, scriptural and patristic authorities in your posts to other discussion topics seem to reveal a secretive completely spurious nature of of all elements of your completely unsupported critical posts of July 1, 2011. Why didn't you provide, even one, attempted support of any of your seemingly fabricated factual, ecclesial, or theological statements? Does this glaring omission telegraph your silent "freudian" admission that all of your statements are fraudulent shams? Please authenticate your credibility and the integrity of this Coptic forum by proving or withdrawing all of your substantive statements in your relative posts. God's Holy Bible also provides His followers with His commandments for resolving their disputes. See, Mt. 18:15-35; 1 Cor. 5:1-6:20. Please consider similarly seeking this narrow, nearly deserted, path.
I've just realized that the God hating demonic feminism inspired foundation for your raging tirade against God's patriarchal family and gender codes seems to be the widely held, universal sign of hate and rebellion against the unchanging gender and family order requirements of our eternal Father/God/Creator/Final Judge. What is your personal agenda that God's uncompromising Words offend?
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140650#msg140650 date=1309549698] + Irini nem ehmot,
Father bless!
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11418.msg140647#msg140647 date=1309548050] Why is a patriarchal point of view the same as hatred of women? I don't believe it is at all.
I never said it was. I'm saying that if a person has an innate hatred of women, they can use a patriarchal point of view to spread the hatred.
Much more prevalent, however, is the universal use, (as here?), of defense of demonic feminism to subtly (or violently- as in abortion/civil divorce, for example) promote hatred of our Unchanging, Eternal, Creator/Judge, Father, and His eternal commandments.
Irish, I have been reading this thread, and initially, I was glad someone is offering advice about how to reclaim some of his financial and legal powers. I agreed with what you were saying only to the extent that it helps miracleseek protect himself and his children from the abuse that they are definitely facing.
However, you are probably the most obnoxious person I have ever known and I am sure you were at least a major contributor to your own divorce. Also, instead of moving on, you have let your divorce turn into a long and annoying rant about how to put women in their place.
You focus too excessively on the duties of women to their husbands and don't seem to have given a moments thought to your duties to her. We submit to Christ and are obedient to him because of what he has first done for us. He died for us, and everything that he imposes on us is for our best interest anyway. My instinct is that if you had this kind of a relationship with your wife, or at least tried to, she would have been more likely to submit to you (but in a proper way and not your perverted interpretation of submission)
I hope that one day you will stop hiding behind your intellectual abilities so that a message like this would actually get through to you (I am confident it won't). Im a guy by the way
I still await a response to my questions from another thread:
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11899.msg142209#msg142209 date=1311987203] [quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679] A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that there are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's "Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition"]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
Comments
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11418.msg139174#msg139174 date=1307560254]
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=11418.msg137776#msg137776 date=1305194286]
Hello Miracleseek,
I get the feeling your wife is jealous. This comes about by insecurity. I think you will have to make her feel good about herself in a non-judgemental way.
You will have to accept the way she feels about something and reflect those feelings back to her. By saying - "you feel that ....." or "you sound ..." and fill in the rest by describing in your words how she feels.
It doesn't mean you are going to lose yourself. You are who you are. As GOD said to Moses, "I am Who I am." You have your territory. If some one came up and stood on your foot by accident most people would say sorry. So you have to define those boundries. You have to say how you feel when she comes into your territory. Be assertive in actions you decide on and take. She will get angry, but you have to get back your territory a little bit at a time. So start by protecting little parts at first and eventually she won't be insecure enough to have her parents there as well. Give her praise for the good things she does. This builds confidence.
May GOD protect you, strenghten you, and always be your guide.
I think this user, Joshua, has given the best advice here.
Now, this is what I think the problem is, from reading a bit about you, and your situation.
Your wife wants to punish you. She believes in God, but hates God for allowing her to get married.
Which means that YOU may have done something wrong before you got married.
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
Did she feel that you were the only option available?
Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
She obviously isn't in love with you - and if she was jealous, I'd be OK with that, but this isn't jealousy. This is punishment.
Its obvious.
In fact, I don't know your wife, but I'd say she's very religious indeed, and maybe she is even mad at God for allowing her to get married.
If this is case, you need to say, that way I can give you the best advice. Im 110% sure that what Im saying is the reason.
If you seduced your wife before marriage, and she felt obliged to marry you because of it, or if you had sexual experiences that she didn't, she could feel hatred against you.
What you are enduring is pure hatred. I don't believe she has a mental problem. She has a spiritual problem.
Maybe she depended on God for marrying someone, and she ended up with you (not to make it sound bad against you) - and now she hates God for allowing her marriage to be with you. It could be for ANY of these reasons.
Women, who get married between 21 to 30, MAY feel their life is over at the point of marriage, and they could genuinely blame you for that. ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, i know - but if she had a good social life, and knew many friends, and was not sure about you, but depended on God to close this door with you, and it didn't close (i.e. you ended up getting married), she could hate you and God.
Ultimately, if what I'm saying is true, there are a few things you can do to help the situation:
a) Tell her that she decided , with her free will to marry you. Part of being an adult is that we are responsible for the decisions we make, and we don't take it out on others if we feel that we've made the wrong ones.
b) That she is assuming that she'd have found better than you - she doesn't know. She may have found worse.
I am pretty sure that when she sees the sacrifices you have given to calm her insecurities and her hatred, she will love you more. She IS the same girl you fell in love with, but marriage, at the wrong time, for some people, can produce bad results.
I would not talk about divorce yet or think this. Not at all.
But try to understand what is upsetting her. This is NOT the girl you married dude. She is definately not herself.
hi Zoxsasi,
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
she had all the freedom... I suggested to break off the engagement couple of time...but she was determined to promise that it will work
Did she feel that you were the only option available?
I don;\'t think she felt that way...she had 2 previous engagement...but i don't think this is a problem for her
Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
she probably hates me..she actually asked for divorce now afterI have lost my job...and off course she feels her luxurious world is collapsing...her constant accustation that I don't love enough..leaving my family..my friends..and focusing on the well being of the children...getting abused to always lose weight...and I don't love enough...telling me what to eat and where to work and what to do..and all that is not enough...even when we go to church ..if it is ever allawd ..i will be taling care of both kids..so she can enjoy the holy masss...and I don't love enough,,
OK.. I see. I understand now your situation perfectly well.
I'm just curious - what exactly about her did you like? What was one of the qualities that you married her for??
If she wants to divorce you because you have no work; its extremely arrogant of her, but if she does divorce you, you are innocent.
But tell me, what did you like? I mean, was it her personality? Her appearance? What did she like about you?
So, it seems that you were a total gentleman before marriage - but then im just curious as to why she chose you?
[quote author=miracleseek link=topic=11418.msg139491#msg139491 date=1308090004]
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=11418.msg139174#msg139174 date=1307560254]
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=11418.msg137776#msg137776 date=1305194286]
Hello Miracleseek,
I get the feeling your wife is jealous. This comes about by insecurity. I think you will have to make her feel good about herself in a non-judgemental way.
You will have to accept the way she feels about something and reflect those feelings back to her. By saying - "you feel that ....." or "you sound ..." and fill in the rest by describing in your words how she feels.
It doesn't mean you are going to lose yourself. You are who you are. As GOD said to Moses, "I am Who I am." You have your territory. If some one came up and stood on your foot by accident most people would say sorry. So you have to define those boundries. You have to say how you feel when she comes into your territory. Be assertive in actions you decide on and take. She will get angry, but you have to get back your territory a little bit at a time. So start by protecting little parts at first and eventually she won't be insecure enough to have her parents there as well. Give her praise for the good things she does. This builds confidence.
May GOD protect you, strenghten you, and always be your guide.
I think this user, Joshua, has given the best advice here.
Now, this is what I think the problem is, from reading a bit about you, and your situation.
Your wife wants to punish you. She believes in God, but hates God for allowing her to get married.
Which means that YOU may have done something wrong before you got married.
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
Did she feel that you were the only option available?
Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
She obviously isn't in love with you - and if she was jealous, I'd be OK with that, but this isn't jealousy. This is punishment.
Its obvious.
In fact, I don't know your wife, but I'd say she's very religious indeed, and maybe she is even mad at God for allowing her to get married.
If this is case, you need to say, that way I can give you the best advice. Im 110% sure that what Im saying is the reason.
If you seduced your wife before marriage, and she felt obliged to marry you because of it, or if you had sexual experiences that she didn't, she could feel hatred against you.
What you are enduring is pure hatred. I don't believe she has a mental problem. She has a spiritual problem.
Maybe she depended on God for marrying someone, and she ended up with you (not to make it sound bad against you) - and now she hates God for allowing her marriage to be with you. It could be for ANY of these reasons.
Women, who get married between 21 to 30, MAY feel their life is over at the point of marriage, and they could genuinely blame you for that. ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, i know - but if she had a good social life, and knew many friends, and was not sure about you, but depended on God to close this door with you, and it didn't close (i.e. you ended up getting married), she could hate you and God.
Ultimately, if what I'm saying is true, there are a few things you can do to help the situation:
a) Tell her that she decided , with her free will to marry you. Part of being an adult is that we are responsible for the decisions we make, and we don't take it out on others if we feel that we've made the wrong ones.
b) That she is assuming that she'd have found better than you - she doesn't know. She may have found worse.
I am pretty sure that when she sees the sacrifices you have given to calm her insecurities and her hatred, she will love you more. She IS the same girl you fell in love with, but marriage, at the wrong time, for some people, can produce bad results.
I would not talk about divorce yet or think this. Not at all.
But try to understand what is upsetting her. This is NOT the girl you married dude. She is definately not herself.
hi Zoxsasi,
Did you give her her "freedom" in choosing you?
she had all the freedom... I suggested to break off the engagement couple of time...but she was determined to promise that it will work
Did she feel that you were the only option available?
I don;\'t think she felt that way...she had 2 previous engagement...but i don't think this is a problem for her
Does she hate you, or feel resentment against you, because you didnt get her a chance to meet other potential suitors?
she probably hates me..she actually asked for divorce now afterI have lost my job...and off course she feels her luxurious world is collapsing...her constant accustation that I don't love enough..leaving my family..my friends..and focusing on the well being of the children...getting abused to always lose weight...and I don't love enough...telling me what to eat and where to work and what to do..and all that is not enough...even when we go to church ..if it is ever allawd ..i will be taling care of both kids..so she can enjoy the holy masss...and I don't love enough,,
OK.. I see. I understand now your situation perfectly well.
I'm just curious - what exactly about her did you like? What was one of the qualities that you married her for??
If she wants to divorce you because you have no work; its extremely arrogant of her, but if she does divorce you, you are innocent.
But tell me, what did you like? I mean, was it her personality? Her appearance? What did she like about you?
So, it seems that you were a total gentleman before marriage - but then im just curious as to why she chose you?
Thanks for your reply..when I meet her..I fpund that girl that is modetrate..not too outgoing..loves tasbeha.a member of the choir..close to God..we used to pray on the phone together..I thought this was a good way to find a good mother for my future chrisitan kids..finding someone like that in north america is rare. Naïve maybe..more of a fool now.even the differences as " I don't accept u going out alone with your friends..male friends..one social life"..the FOC has said all this will go away after marraige ..you havr to believe in the sacrement..I advice everyone the problem remian and maybe exponetially expand after the wedding
The reason why she married me:
A) I treated her like a gentleman..when we are getting to know each other.I would got above and beyound to take care of her
B) her patrents liked me and started to use me.fixing computers.giving advice.naïve I was I offered
This is the bonus that one time somebody has mentioned to her how good of a catch I am
My mom passed away..so there is no potential mother in
law to suffer from as her previous engagement.
Thanks for reading
Thank you for your spiritual concern and for reminding me that the excessive adjectives I am using are usually counter-productive, often even incomprehensible. Egypt born and educated friends have honestly told me they get lost in my excess descriptions and long, meandering sentences, and they have no idea what I am trying to say. I understand. There I go again. I am using these excesses because I am trying to be as complete and accurate as possible in defining my expressions and thoughts. I am futilely struggling to defeat, define and confine evil demonic, deceptive, dishonest feminism in words, its own game. I believe Charles Dickens said that there is no good writing, only good re-writing. Maybe I’ll eventually re-write some of these thoughts, if they ever seem to be useful.
Although some Coptic feminists slander me as hating women, this is just another self-serving, demonic feminist deception. Rather, their feminist beliefs and actions are rebellions and betrayals of their God created nature and purpose. I can’t repent and be forgiven for their disobedience to God and to their fathers and husbands. My repentence would be nonsence. It seems to be silly feminist propaganda that has convinced many obedient, God loving orthodox women (especially teens and young adults) that all women are (or should be) feminists. The Coptic and orthodox clergy have not published and/or taught clarifications of these demonic feminist confusions that are usually introduced by feminist or uncatechized Sunday school teachers, to Coptic youth and adults.
I don’t believe that I should seek forgiveness for criticizing a woman’s demonic feminism. I believe this would be disrespectful to God and His divine will. I have tried to avoid criticizing any woman, outside her demonic feminist intent or actions. I think these intents and actions make any woman (or man) inhuman as against their God created nature. Do you believe I should seek this forgiveness? Why? What Bible verses are you relying upon?
Yes, admirably, miracleseek has been very spiritually objective concerning the seeming demonic feminist sins and abuses of his wife. I would join miracleseek’s happiness to see his wife repent, confess to him for forgiveness, and reform from her seeming self-destructive addiction to demonic feminism and its manifestations. Hopefully the present conditions will be the low point of miracleseek’s experience with demonic feminism. He hasn’t really been in the fire, yet. I have seen too much deceptive demonic feminist family destruction to ever tell a concerned husband with early teen or younger children to trust a weak faithed, doubting, threatening or challenging, tending toward demonic feminism, or self-concerned wife. This is a warning to become as prepared for rebellion as possible. The strength of the husband’s preparation is an important measure of his family’s assured unity, when faced with this type of actual or potential rebellion.
After a brief, patriarchal counselling from our old Irish priest, my wife reasonably repented for filing her first secret divorce and returned to seeming happy family life for six years, until the new, modern catholic clergy went into their current demonic feminist/ freudian apostacy that is the shame of all so-called christianity. These demonic feminist/freudian priests and her secret divorce lawyer encouraged her to re-assert her demonic feminist rebellion against her husband and family.
I’m not sure that I understood your comment. If I haven’t answered your concern, please tell me in a different way, so that I get your point.
pray for us men irishpilgrim.
Now another option for you appears. Your wife doesn’t seem like a credible negotiation partner, but if the two of you can reach an agreement on your bankrupt property, and most important on the way you want to share the care and times with the children, it should be possible to have a non-contested, mutually agreed divorce. It is even possible to have a mutually agreed separation that both of you agree to take care of the children in an agreed way and go your separate ways otherwise. Either of these choices would be least expensive and most peaceful. Pray, Pray, Pray.
You should try to negotiate with her to see if anything peaceful is possible. Eventually, you’ll need at least one divorce/ bankruptcy attorney to see that you comply with the relevant laws. In the U.S., whenever the parents divorce, the state takes legal custody of the minor children and just gives the parents the rights and duties to support, care for and “visit” with them.
In every event, as soon as possible you should interview with divorce attorneys to see what the legal limits and hurdles are.
I’m going to be travelling for a week or so, so send me a PM for better chance of reply, if I may be able to help.
God bless you and your children. Try to visit with experienced divorced dads and divorce attorneys so that you protect your children as much as possible. Based on her abusive behavior, I wouldn’t trust your wife to be honest in negotiations with you. For the sake of your children, don’t let your guard down. Pray, Pray, Pray.
Hi irishpligrim,
On forgiveness, it's a way to love your wife.
Your quotes in the Bible.
Colossians 3:19 Husbands, love your wifes and be not bitter against them.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wifes, even as Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it.
I apologize for passing your post. You have asked several questions that I want to take time to answer as thoroughly as possible. Some of the other responses were pretty caustic, even asking to lock the discussion, etc. I wanted to reply to these before they gathered too much steam.
Now I'm going to have to travel for a week or two, so it will be hard to keep up. I will try to provide an adequate answer as soon as possible.
I know you are trying to understand God's intention in the Holy Bible. However, I have not been able to find a patriarchal teacher in the Coptic Church since Anba Gregorios and he is not translaqted to English. I found one very patriarchal booklet on marriage by Anba Gregorios, in arabic, several years ago. I haven't been able to find a copy for several years. I suspect that the Coptic demonic feminists have removed all of the copies from the U.S. Coptic bookstores. I loaned my copy and I am told that it mysteriously disappeared. ?????? I'll be back in a short while. Pray for me.
Unworthy1,
I apologize for passing your post. You have asked several questions that I want to take time to answer as thoroughly as possible. Some of the other responses were pretty caustic, even asking to lock the discussion, etc. I wanted to reply to these before they gathered too much steam.
Now I'm going to have to travel for a week or two, so it will be hard to keep up. I will try to provide an adequate answer as soon as possible.
I know you are trying to understand God's intention in the Holy Bible. However, I have not been able to find a patriarchal teacher in the Coptic Church since Anba Gregorios and he is not translaqted to English. I found one very patriarchal booklet on marriage by Anba Gregorios, in arabic, several years ago. I haven't been able to find a copy for several years. I suspect that the Coptic demonic feminists have removed all of the copies from the U.S. Coptic bookstores. I loaned my copy and I am told that it mysteriously disappeared. ?????? I'll be back in a short while. Pray for me.
I await your reply.
The prayers of the saints be with you.
I am not aware of, nor can I imagine any attempt to bring all scriptural passages that are relevant to God’s family and gender commandments together into one consolidated text. God is patriarchal. Every authentic “jot and tittle” of His Holy Bible is patriarchal. What purpose would this repetitive listing serve, other than distracting from, or diluting the general patriarchal paradigm and context of specific passages and of the entire Holy Bible itself? I agree that, without any contemporary orthodox teachers of God’s patriarchal gender and family commandments (except a seemingly endless line of opposing proponents of deceptive, dishonest demonic feminist/ freudian propaganda) the study and understanding of God’s unchangeable patriarchal spiritual order is frustrating and requires a lot of committed study time and effort. As I recall, I started by skimming through St. Paul’s epistles in study bibles which included cross references to related verses. This gave me a listing of some relevant verses. Comparison of the verses shows congruity. I had been a long time Irish Catholic at that time, so I read through Augustine’s commentaries on those verses and through seemingly related Papal Encyclicals and older marriage texts. I found that encyclicals and marriage texts after about 1920 were becoming increasingly anti-patriarchal and feminist. I obtained the clearest insight into the tactics of epidemic contemporary Catholic demonic feminism in the seemingly God blessed writings of the spirited Irish-American journalist/ writer, Donna (Corcoran-Merrigan) Steichen, entitled Ungodly Rage: The Hidden Face of Catholic Feminism. Mrs. Steichen has devoted her life to researching and reporting the seeming take-over of Catholic education by Catholic demonic feminist/ homosexual/ freudian/ Wiccan/ New Age/ goddess influences. Feminist/ goddess theology/ thealogy is epidemic in all of the so-called christian churches. The education policies of the Coptic Church seem to now be developing a similar demonic feminist paradigm. Also similar to the growth of Catholic demonic feminism, etc., Mother Irini’s women’s monastery and feminist scholar, Nelli van Doorn-Harder seem to be close to the Coptic demonic feminist central command. Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world. 1Peter 5:8-9. After leaving Rome, primarily for these reasons, I found my way to the seeming mountain top, the blessed orthodox patriarchal writings of St. John Chrysostom and the other Holy Orthodox Fathers. For an Orthodox understanding of specific passages and theological principles, we have to give first consideration to the long standing and deeply studied explanations that our Holy Orthodox Church Fathers have passed down to us through our immediate orthodox forefathers. How will this demonic feminist apostate orthodox church generation pass on these traditions? Are they lost in this generation of apostate Orthodox leadership, clergy, teachers, parents and even the responders to this discussion? I also understand that the commentaries of the Holy Fathers are usually based on actual theological disputes/inquiries; and are generally not based on isolated imaginary, hypothetical examples as you seem to have a tendency to rely upon. By macho, do you include the liturgical Coptic “deaconate,” that I have heard aged to pubescent Coptic demonic feminists criticize? This exclusively Coptic liturgical spiritual masculinization of Coptic young men should be righteously envied by the entire, so called, christian world (yes, including the demonic feminist WCC). Do you consider miracleseek’s wife’s “machaness” to be a justified “trigger” of divorce? Of course, Satan is still on the prowl. Orthodox demonic feminist “altar girls,” priestesses, bishopesses, and even matriarchs, anyone? A proud Coptic feminist in this discussion has boasted, and thereby somewhat slandered St. Mary, that decadent (post Flood, post Sodom, post Egyptian exile, post leprous Miriam, post wilderness rebellions, post painful second circumcision, post God prohibited foreign marriages, etc.) Israel had a ruling prophetess. I mentioned above that St. Chrysostom noted that Eve briefly seized “world” rule once; and ruined all.
Most replies have slanderously speculated, just as you have, that I sin in excusing many cases of husband caused adultery and physical abuse. What do these fabricated demonic feminism’s “red herring” issues have to do with miracleseek’s struggles? I have tried to warn miracleseek and all men with marriages to or relationships of any kind with Orthodox demonic feminists, for the sake of their children and family, to carefully avoid being provoked into any type of threatening or physical confrontations. I don’t believe the issue of adultery has been mentioned, except that by a wife, in regard to St. Chrysostom’s commentary on the passage you introduced, above. You haven’t provided us with any information regarding your close experience with any actual divorce cases. In fact, how much actual divorce experience do you detect that any of the responders to this discussion have had? I don’t recall that any responder has based his advice to miracleseek on any actual relevant personal experience. Is this your criteria for valid crucial family jeopardy counselling credibility? As I have said above, all of the Coptic divorces involving minor children that I have observed in the Houston/Dallas areas in the past 15 years have been motivated by the rebellious Coptic demonic feminist wife, with no apparent public disapproval by the relevant Coptic communities, clergy and leadership. I don’t judge sins, but it seems that serious continuing sins could be involved against the spouses, families and children in these cases. I’ve been interested, but have never heard of, nor detected, any signs of repentence to their victims by any of these betraying demonic feminists/ clergy. It seems that the orthodox demonic feminist rebellion goes on and on and on, seeking inevitable moral parity with the general demonic Western culture. Of course, sadly, there are no relevant admonishing sermons to encourage healing repentence by these pathetic women/ clergy. Just more demonic feminist encouragement and festering of another divorce destroyed young orthodox family. St. Paul’s counsel regarding the somewhat related family immorality issue in 1Cor. 5 would seem to contain some suggested righteous admonition/ counsel to our orthodox bishops, clergy and communities in response to the relevant evil fruits of “modern” demonic feminism/ divorce.
The Holy Bible describes the essential features of a God pleasing, patriarchal marriage. As we’ve discussed above, the eternal bases for God’s patriarchal order for righteous marriage are: Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Gen. 2:18; and, To the woman (the helper created by Lord God) He (Lord God) said, “... you desire to rule your husband, but he is to rule over you.” Gen. 3:16b.
It is the Orthodox Christian Tradition that Jesus Christ directly taught His Apostles the eternal theological truths and understandings that they in turn passed on to us in their traditional Apostolic teachings and writings regarding the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible. Saints Peter and Paul are the primary Apostolic teachers of Jesus Christ’s commandments and principles concerning Christian marriage, family and gender order and relationships.
Your beliefs are not clearly stated. Do you believe that all of God’s Word has a patriarchal paradigm? If not, which Bible verses do you rely upon for your seemingly confident questioning of the general Biblical patriarchal perogatives?
According to St. Paul, the basic features of Christian marriage are reasonably described as follows:
Ephesians 5.22-33
[22] Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord.
[23] For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
[24] As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
[25] Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
[26] that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
[27] that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
[28] Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
[29] For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,
[30] because we are members of his body.
[31] "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
[32] This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church;
[33] however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5338807.
St. John Chrysostom’s Homily XX on Ephesians 5.22-33 provides an in depth explanation of this vital Apostolic outline of the order and practice of christian marriage. One crucial excerpt from St. Chrysostom’s homily clearly explains why the strict observance of God’s specified gender and role order is vital in order for a family challenged in the world to maintain spiritual and practical unity, in adversity, is the following: Hence he places the one (wife) in subjection, and the other (husband) in authority, that there may be peace; for where there is equal authority there can never be peace; neither where a house is a democracy, nor where all are rulers; but the ruling power must of necessity be one. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.iii.iv.xxi.html. NPNF, Series 1, Vol. 13, p.147, line 4.
Jesus Christ’s personally chosen patriarchal leader of the Apostles is St. Peter. In this role, out of loving concern for his persecuted flock, St. Peter wrote down, with slightly more clarity, to the churches of the general diaspora, the same basic principles of family order as St. Paul wrote to the Ephesians. These verses comprise the Catholic Epistle reading at many daily and Sunday Coptic Divine Liturgies. I have never heard an admonishing sermon based upon or in reference to these preeminently vital patriarchal family commandments.
1 Peter 2.18-3.7
[18]Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing.
[19] For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering unjustly.
[20] For what credit is it, if when you do wrong and are beaten for it you take it patiently? But if when you do right and suffer for it you take it patiently, you have God's approval.
[21] For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
[22] He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
[23] When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.
[24] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
[25] For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
1Pet. 3.1-7
[1]Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
[2] when they see your reverent and chaste behavior.
[3] Let not yours be the outward adorning with braiding of hair, decoration of gold, and wearing of fine clothing,
[4] but let it be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable jewel of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.
[5] So once the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves and were submissive to their husbands,
[6] as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are now her children if you do right and let nothing terrify you.
[7]Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=5489323.
Ephesians verse 5:24 specifies that a wife is to be obedient to her husband’s authority in everything. This seems to clearly invest any husband with the God given authority to make all of the decisions you note, if he so chooses. It also seems that any wife’s objection to these decisions by her husband would be sin against his God given authority over her.
It isn’t clear to me what your intent is by your choice of the word “dominated.” What scripture verse is your reference for the choice of this seemingly loaded term?
I don’t understand your confusion in regard to miracleseek’s wife’s seemingly rebellious actions against God’s commandments regarding her witnessed Coptic marriage liturgy’s imposed role and duty of obedience to her husband. As I’ve expressed too many times, it seems that she and all other orthodox feminists that I have witnessed are demonically influenced to intentionally disobey their husbands, and thereby intentionally disobey various of God’s clear family and gender commandments. How do you understand it, differently?
Pray for miracleseek’s family, Pray for our Orthodox leaders, Pray for me. God bless you.
Having read your posts here as well as on coptichymns, I can safely say that it comes as no surprise that you are divorced. You are a vile misogynist and what self respecting woman would ever want to be with a creature such as yourself. I feel sorry for your ex-wife for having had to deal with you. Everything you write is demonic, deceptive and dishonest. You know nothing about Orthodoxy or God, as St. John says, 'If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?' (1 John 4:20) and again 'But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.' (1 John 2:11).
God is not patriarchal and the notion is completely laughable. The Middle Eastern culture may be patriarchal but that does not extend to God. This is clear in the dealings of Christ with the women of His time. He tore down the concept of a patriarchal worldview repeatedly. The case of the woman with the issue of blood, the case of the Samaritan woman, the case of the Canaanite woman (need I go on?).
It is clear to me that you have a long way to go in truly understanding what Orthodoxy is, and, quite frankly, I'm disgusted that you have been welcomed into the Orthodox Church when you hold so much hatred for the opposite sex. Orthodoxy is a precious pearl that should not be cast before swine such as yourself.
Father bless!
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11418.msg140647#msg140647 date=1309548050]
Why is a patriarchal point of view the same as hatred of women? I don't believe it is at all.
I never said it was. I'm saying that if a person has an innate hatred of women, they can use a patriarchal point of view to spread the hatred.
Another well written post, indeed. Thoughtful and filled with powerful language. However, you did not answer most of my questions or address my main concern: What will this male-dominated (that is the appropriate term, like it or not) marriage look like, practically, in the 21st century?
Give me some examples/scenarios of a wife being submissive to her husband. . .how far does the submission go?
They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. In your case 'Retarded' you are just pathetic. You have no personality of your own and so copy an already existing profile. That is beyond lame, and just prove that you are nothing. You are nobody. I just hope the moderators/administrators will take appropriate action in either editing your profile or completely removing it for being a troll.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. In your case 'Retarded' you are just pathetic. You have no personality of your own and so copy an already existing profile. That is beyond lame, and just prove that you are nothing. You are nobody. I just hope the moderators/administrators will take appropriate action in either editing your profile or completely removing it for being a troll.
Cephas, you should quote next time! Retarded, edited his posts (which I never saw) so you seem unnecessarily harsh in your comments.
Unworthy1,
While I still have the content of the posts, the quote function would not have illustrated how he copied my entire profile (name, picture and signature). My comments still stand and I'll add that 'Retarded' is also a spineless coward.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Unworthy1,
While I still have the content of the posts, the quote function would not have illustrated how he copied my entire profile (name, picture and signature). My comments still stand and I'll add that 'Retarded' is also a spineless coward.
Oh, i thought you were name calling, but then i realized retarded changed his name, LOL.
I just tried to re-read the demonic dialogue of Hegelian consensus between Joshuaa and Xoxsasi that is the basis of your respectful June 14/15, 2011 responses. Although they seem to have taken an undefined circuitous route and seemed to have agreed that your wife’s disability is spiritual, I don’t believe that they stated any authoritative references for their determinations. In fact I couldn’t find any recognizable spiritual marriage principles from the Holy Bible in their words. Their reasoning seemed like atheistic psycho-babble to me. I wish they had provided their Scriptural and/or peer-reviewed spiritual references/ cross index so that we could understand their terms and review the works of their spiritual authorities. With specific cash conditions, I can agree with their counsel. If Zoxsasi (or together they) would provide a $100,000.00 cash deposit to you, to enable you to obtain the most skilled and effective local divorce attorney for you and your children on very short emergency notice, I would agree with Zoxsasi’s advice to not talk or think about divorce yet. That would seem to be a very convincing statistical exception to my caution to immediately prepare to defend against a demonic feminist divorce. They both, and some other responders, seem to agree on some nebulous set of private, secret, occult religious principles involving (Joshuaa) jealousy, insecurity, feel good, non-judgmental, feelings, soundings, acceptance, reflected feelings, lose yourself, you are who (or Who) you are, “I am Who (God) I am.,” your territory (her territory?), be assertive, provoke her to anger, get back yours, she and her parents will stop being free-loaders on your broad back, Praise Her, Praise Her. Her raging rebellion needs more confidence. (When we’re done, you’ll pray for her return to this current status.)
I (Zoxsasi) agree, BUT, this is the problem: she wants to punish you (more?); she believes in God; she hates God; (guilty, guilty, shame, shame) YOU may have done something wrong (this is the freudian Hook that entraps feminists’ husbands to pay for demonic bogus “marriage” counselling/ husband/ God bashing fees); her freedom; you didn’t give her another chance for other suitors (sleep around? hook-up? get high?); she isn’t in love with you; this isn’t jealousy; this is punishment; I don’t know your wife; I’d say she is very religious; maybe she is even mad at God; I’m 110% sure (prophetic?) I’m right; [now lets get down and dirty (into pure freudian kinky sex)], first the facts; then the illusions and dreams; she has a spiritual problem; maybe she (mistakenly) depended upon God; it could be for ANY of these reasons; (now for some atheistic scientific certainty) women who get married between 21 and 30 MAY feel ... ; ITS TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, I know (Excuse me, ladies, that sounds patriarchal, but is this pseudo-scientific statement also feministically politically correct?); (I repeat) don’t depend upon God; if what I’m saying is true (I doubt it, but you shouldn’t); Tell her ... (?); Part of being an adult is that we are responsible ...; she doesn’t know (?); I wouldn’t talk or think about divorce (where can I send my cash divorce attorney fee bond?); (Remember, in fact I don’t know your wife), but try harder to understand her, you married someone else (does she have a wicked twin sister?), etc.
Come on, guys, stop playing demonic psychotic torture mind games with miracleseek and his beloved innocent children. His wife’s demonic divorcing feminist behavior follows that of the current and previous generations of her family destroying feminist sisters, right down the line. What else is reasonable? No sincere alternative nor admonishing Holy Orthodox marriage principles seem to have been taught in the Coptic and other western Orthodox jurisdictions for about two generations. The protestant, catholic, orthodox and general population sexual, family and recreational immorality seem to be rapidly tending to statistical parity.
Believe me, miracleseek, if you and your children get ambushed by a typical contemporary Coptic demonic feminist’s divorce, that you refused to reasonably prepare for, as well as you reasonably can (spiritually, emotionally and legally), you will probably not feel innocent for the remainder of your life with (or without) your children. You will not be innocent, but somewhat irresponsible. All of the “road signs” are there. DANGER AHEAD. The road is not fun, but narrow and very difficult, that leads to light. As I have mentioned, your unemployment and bankruptcy could be the blessings God has prepared for you and your children, in many ways. He will provide for your needs. Seriously consider legally dumping the dead weights. You can always lovingly provide them the support that God urges, as He provides.
Joshuaa and Zoxsasi, please stop playing secretive, occult, gnostic word games with us. I have the impression that this is a Coptic Orthodox site. Shouldn’t spiritual discussions here use terms and concepts of traditional Coptic (or at least of traditional Orthodox Christian) theology and spirituality; or interpret terms and concepts of other religions or spiritualities, if possible, into descriptions related to the Holy Bible? Each religion/ spirituality has its own terms and definitions of its terms, to serve its own interests. For instance, I believe that atheistic freudianism and atheistic feminism have traditionally sought disingenous credibility as reasonable spiritual alternatives to traditional orthodox christianity. I, naively, understand that the term psychology, means study/ science of the soul. Isn’t Freud an atheist? What is the agreed or alternative freudian definition of the soul? Open, peer-reviewed references, only, please. As I noted above, some of your statements seem contradictory to me. You don’t seem to intend to be self-contradictory. I would have more confidence in your spiritual credibility if you specified the texts, and their authors, of the spiritual concepts and definitions that your marriage counselling to miracleseek and his children rely upon. I have had similar difficulty understanding and accepting the so-called Coptic marriage/family counselling lectures that I have attended or heard that were presented by Pope Shenouda, Bishops Youssef,Angeallos, and Rofael, and Coptic priests of the Southern Diocese. So far as I know, only Bishop Angeallos’ lecture on Coptic feminism has been transcribed (probably by self-serving Coptic demonic feminists). As I have noted at another time, the U.S. Greek Orthodox acquiescense to demonic feminism seems to now be several degrees more openly diabolical than the Coptic version. Several years ago, I attended a “marriage” conference at the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Houston. The parish priest opened the conference by introducing the mercenary Greek Orthodox divorce lawyers and freudian “marriage” counsellors who were to present the program. The priest pointed out the Greek advantage of “freedom” to divorce and remarry, to attending Catholics, and invited all attendees to have personal conferences with the presenters at their private booths. The seasoned Greek pastor at the Greek Orthodox Church in Cincinnatti interrupted the Lenten Bible study that I attended to assure the constantly whinning feminists that there are no legitimate theological bases to prevent ordination of women as Christian Orthodox priests. I believe that prominent Greek Orthodox bishop, Kallistos Ware, has assured the demonic feminist WCC’s officials (and young Coptic demonic feminist monastic candidates) of his agreement with the same demonic feminist theological speculation.
Maybe Satan’s feminist sisters are finally going to obtain their retribution against God for expecting their obedience as a helper.
Hello irishpilgrim,
I quoted Colossians 3:19 and Ephesians 5:25.
Re: your 110615
Yes, sometimes, some Irish may talk too much. Some even realize that the (Coptic trained) Irish monks saved Civilization in the last Dark Age. I can’t imagine a more logical spiritual/ philosophical salvation team, for that time. I don’t see any possibility that the Irish will carry their share this next time. And, the Copts seem to be slipping. What are the signs of a current civilization worth saving? Without God united families? I have never kissed the Blarney Stone, but I will try to hang head down and do it right, if God ever gives me an opportunity. Then all of the gall that you now imagine will be pleasing to everyone, like big, fresh, juicy ripe dates, dipped in honey. Let’s then see if the sour puss shrews can resist that re-packaging of patriarchal theology.
As I have related several times, St. John Chrysostom (golden-mouthed lover of St. Paul) destroyed the main current demonic mercenary freudian scam against families’ peace about 1450 years before atheist, cocaine addict Freud was born. Chrysostom’s earthy explanation of another crucial reason (God had clearly ordered it to be so, in the beginning) (would freudians dare to claim this as psychology? No, of course not, there is no endless “counselling” fees for this true peace!) for God’s patriarchal gender order is: Hence he places the one (wife) in subjection, and the other (husband) in authority, that there may be peace; for where there is equal authority there can never be peace; neither where a house is a democracy, nor where all are rulers; but the ruling power must of necessity be one. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf113.iii.iv.xxi.html. NPNF, Series 1, Vol. 13, p.147, line 4.
There is no other possibility for even short term relaxed, comfortable, trusting, true community peace. Devisive demonic freudians/ feminists can’t seek true peace, but only temporary accommodation, through intimidation, insults, compromise, consensus, trade-offs, bribes, misrepresentations, fabrications, persuasion, (thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis), etc.. Why would Orthodox demonic feminists, freudians and clergy be illogically intransigent in support of women’s unnatural, so-called, equal rights? Would it be to please that same old devisive Satan? Or, to please our peace loving, Father God, who made us, in order, in His image? All of Satan’s allies lust for war at some level. It gives them a demonic illusion to pleasures of greed, importance, busyness, power, control, etc. Of course all of these heretics exercise their own illegitimate agendas very patriarchially (uncompromisingly), in order to obstruct the exercise of a husband’s legitimate God given patriarchal authority in his family.
The rebelleous, confused, buffeted, blundering, sinning women (miracleseek’s wife, etc.) are to be pitied. They refuse to repent and seek forgiveness. They don’t seem to be able to consider that their disobedience is against God, against their micro and macro liturgical community, against their duty to their children and against their God-given husband. It seems that a Satan inspired excuse seems to be that the leaders of all of the so-called christian churches (especially our own so-called Orthodox churches) ruthlessly seek to destroy the God ordained, Apostolic designed, holy patriarchal family peace plan that enabled incomparable world wide, believer family based expansion for about 1950 years, since the Apostles. In its place, these so-called leaders are arrogantly experimenting with an elitist, secretive, unproven, undefined, cocaine addicted atheist’s demonic, pseudo-scientific, pseudo-spiritual, mercenary, long proven to be faith and family destroying, financial extortion based scam/ scheme, that by its nature, never leaves any participants (except its mercenary facilitators) peacefully satisfied. Repentance to God and to our victims, unilaterally washes away all of the undefined symptoms you guys have been speculating about.
It seems that if we are having about any level of mutually open conversation about mutually interested subjects, we can all read the other’s mind, somewhat. Demonic feminists seem to have similar secret and open personal agendas, so with a few words or expressions they should pretty well know their “fellow travellers.” As in some cases, some seem to have developed a very deep level of seeming demonic secrecy. You may have read Scott Peck’s, People of the Lie, his sort of new-age, micro and macro interest in these demons in his futile effort to “spiritualize” psychiatry several years ago. I surmise that he “got the message” from his peers and reformed in order to keep his lucrative “counselling the rich” credentials. So much for so-called professional (pseudo) semi-christian counselling.
Didn’t God put men and women together on His own, very specific, patriarchal conditions? “I will make HIM a HELPER fit for HIM.” And after her seeming first rebellion. “(H)e SHALL RULE OVER you.” Where do demonic feminist women obtain any claim of spiritual authority over their fathers/husbands? Is it from Satan? Who else could it be from? Is God still sufficient to deal with this latest rebellion, in His own time? Where do you see that God’s scheme requires any “work” from anyone outside the couple that God has united? She works toward becoming his perfectly obedient helper, in everything. He works toward becoming a God pleasing family ruler. Neither is perfect. They both have God given spirits to lead each of them to repentence and forgiveness when they offend God and/or each other. God always forgives sincere repentence. Shouldn’t we always seek to repent and forgive? What else is necessary? Repeated family relevant pastoral and community scriptural catechesis. The obvious currently missing necessary ingredient.
Re: your 110616
Thank you, yes, of course forgiveness is crucial in all of our relationships. But, I think you may be a little off target in regard to miracleseek’s situation. It seems to me that the main issues here are his wife’s arrogant disrespect, disobedience and combative rebellion. Miracleseek has mentioned several times that she justifies her misbehavior by the typically demonic feminist charge that he “doesn’t love her enough.” I would say she could have easily picked up this demonically illogical hypocritical excuse from any one of many recent Coptic demonic feminist husband bashing teachers, including Pope Shenouda, and all of the Coptic clerical and freudian speakers that I have heard. I guess that you may also have been propagandized against God’s overwhelmingly clear general patriarchal perogatives, by the general Coptic loud, rude, raging demonic feminist scourge- that has seemingly brought Pope Shenouda and his entire synod under demonic silence and obedience to Coptic demonic feminism.
I rudely believe that your Bible references are intentionally deceptively dishonestly given out of their God given context. Especially in relation to our challenge to help miracleseek. The context of the feminist favored verses you have quoted are as follows:
Colossians 3:18 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
In our discussion, I can see some basis for her repentence here. I don’t think miracleseek would need your demonic feminist husband bashing implications to respond in forgiveness to her repentence.
Re: your 110701
Are you sure that you read my response. I can understand that you may not have been able to spend enough time to note all of my points. I reviewed your post dated 6/12/11 again and I believe that I covered all of your points as well as I can.
I don’t believe that God’s commandments and counsels from the original texts (which our popular ante 1960-70, English bible versions reasonably provide) of the entire Word of God in the Holy Bible are temporal/ temporary/ transient/ culturally sensitive in different times to different generations of God’s people, etc. (I haven’t studied these bible authenticity issues recently and I don’t believe they are germane to miracleseek’s questions, so I will leave this issue alone.) I’ve mentioned earlier that we have to be aware of the demonic feminist alterations to the Holy Bible and Patristic commentaries (especially Chrysostom) since about 1960. All of the contexturally relevant gender and family commandments (and St. Chrysostom’s commentaries that we have discussed) apply to our generation and also to Orthodox christians in 3011, just as they applied to Adam and Eve, to Abraham and Sarah, to St. Peter and his wife, to St. Mary, to the Samaritan woman’s families, to St. Phillip the evangelist’s family, to St. Chrysostom’s parish families in about 400 AD, to the generations of persecuted Coptic and Irish christian families, and, of course, to our families today.
I have tried to the best of my obviously limited ability and personal experiences to provide you with the scriptural and patristic gender and family provisions that seem to me to be relevant to miracleseek’s gender and family difficulties. I think that I have told you that I don’t have any interest or time, now, to speculate on esoteric, abstruse speculative modern/ freudian alternatives to the orthodox patriarchal marriage model that has served God’s people through all of Satan’s challenges since the beginning. Frankly, I believe that your seeming attempts to devise an experimental modern model of marriage that will satisfy the pathetic atheistic, demonic, feminist, freudian critics of God’s proven patriarchal model is scandalous folly. Remember, the road is difficult and those who follow it are few. 50-60% of current marriages incur at least one formal divorce. At least that same proportion of the undivorced probably barely tolerate each other and are too poor or too drunk to divorce. Demonic, so-called orthodox marriages, are going with the flow. There is no official/ community alternative source of patriarchal catechesis.
If you are truly interested in modern working models of successful patriarchal marriages, I’m certain that you’ll be able to eventually find an example or two in your orthodox community. Of course this takes time, tact, openness and patience. This experience is similar to the incidental miracles that pop-up repeatedly in all of our orthodox churches. I have no doubts that God is patriarchally enforcing His marriage, gender and family commandments in the same manner. Keep struggling, assurance will come. It has been a long, prosperous, distracting dry spell for most of us in the U.S.
If these most important issues are of interest to you, I suggest that you work your way through all of St. Chrysostom’s commentaries in the NPNF series that I have linked to several times. I think this will help you overcome the demonic feminist cultural exegesis heresy that seems to have you hooked. I hope that you’ll then be able to see that the fundamental nature of all of the relevant demons and humans that Chrysostom deals with seem to be just like those we now encounter every day. If Satan and his demons stay the same and he convinces you to cut him (and his sweet feminists) some scriptural slack, do you think you have pleased our immutable eternal God? Or do you also adjust God’s patriarchal ruling nature to be manipulable with a cute wiggle and giggle?
We obviously have differing definitions of your term male dominated. We’re speaking different languages, without mutual understanding. Don’t let the demonic feminists and freudians further compromise your spirit with this garbage. In a Godly marriage, the husband’s rule should not require any domination because his wife’s complete, selfless holy obedience seeks out the HELP he needs/ wants and desires to provide it. . No overt action may be required by him. A more highly refined example of an exceptionally obedient “good wife” is described in Proverbs 31:10-31. With the present seemingly complete lack of orthodox patriarchal marriage, gender and family understanding and catechesis, it seems self-evident, just from this discussion, that even those serious, sincere orthodox young women who desire a holy marriage are now being obstructed from even making the inquiry by the domination of their clergy and community by bullying, raging, screaming, insolent demonic feminists from their own families and communities. They seem to have even muzzled all of the orthodox patriarchs, bishops and clergy of this age. Where is a lone voice, like St. Athanasius, like St. Mark of Ephesis? Are all of these jurisdictions hiding secret sex scandals (known and used best by the demonic feminists), similar to the Catholics’? What’s up? The features of Miracleseek’s wife’s rebellion are typical for demonic feminists’ rebellions against sacramental marriages for the two generations that patriarchal marriage catechesis has been abandoned by the Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs and clergy. Shame??
Re: your 110701: 01:53 PM, 02:48 PM, 05:46 PM, 110702: 08:53 AM,
Thank you for your reasonably precise summary of demonic feminist and freudian morals, thealogy and ethics. I couldn’t have imagined a more complete picture. God is so great. And I just finished rereading the account of Balaam’s ass. Numbers 22:1-35.
I hope you will soon erase any of our doubts of your credibility with complete factual, peer reviewed and scriptural references so that we can discuss your popular points of view more fully.
Recent posts may provide you with some insight concerning your consideration whether to subject yourself to non-orthodox, secular bible study/ comparitive religion courses.
The first five courses that you listed are defined as modern criticisms, which directly implies that they are criticisms of our traditional apostolic, patristic orthodoxy. You can also be pretty well assured that all of these courses offered by a secular university will most probably have demonic feminist objectives, which diametrically oppose a traditional orthodox patriarchal paradigm, in order to accomodate the general feminist demands of secular women (and men) faculty and students. If your orthodox formation is not exceptionally strong, these courses would be somewhat a danger to your orthodox faith formation. If your orthodox formation is very confident, these courses would not seem to be of any reasonable benefit.
The sixth course, Christianity in the Patristic Period, should directly address the early history of our apostolic orthodox churches. However, the course could primarily be a “modern” criticism of the origins of orthodox christianity. A review of the course texts may clarify its objectives. The setting of this course should be about 500-1000 years before major Roman Catholic perversions and about 1500 years before Protestant innovations. This course could be of some background value to your orthodox development. The course should especially be an opportunity to study some of the works of our early Orthodox Holy Fathers and of their opponents.
You may also want to give consideration to the content of recent posts that seem relevant to your questions and orthodox formation. In response to your post, Cephas has proudly noted that a similar course was a great learning experience for him. This seems curiously revealing to me because he has recently submitted, without providing any requested factual, peer-reviewed and scriptural support and authorities; puzzling, seemingly clairvoyant, self-condemning, summaries of his prophetic, moral, freudian and orthodox thealogical beliefs and practices, as follows:
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140644#msg140644 date=1309546412]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Having read your posts here as well as on coptichymns, I can safely say that it comes as no surprise that you are divorced. You are a vile misogynist and what self respecting woman would ever want to be with a creature such as yourself. I feel sorry for your ex-wife for having had to deal with you. Everything you write is demonic, deceptive and dishonest. You know nothing about Orthodoxy or God, as St. John says, 'If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?' (1 John 4:20) and again 'But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.' (1 John 2:11).
God is not patriarchal and the notion is completely laughable. The Middle Eastern culture may be patriarchal but that does not extend to God. This is clear in the dealings of Christ with the women of His time. He tore down the concept of a patriarchal worldview repeatedly. The case of the woman with the issue of blood, the case of the Samaritan woman, the case of the Canaanite woman (need I go on?).
It is clear to me that you have a long way to go in truly understanding what Orthodoxy is, and, quite frankly, I'm disgusted that you have been welcomed into the Orthodox Church when you hold so much hatred for the opposite sex. Orthodoxy is a precious pearl that should not be cast before swine such as yourself.
and
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140650#msg140650 date=1309549698]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Father bless!
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11418.msg140647#msg140647 date=1309548050]
Why is a patriarchal point of view the same as hatred of women? I don't believe it is at all.
I never said it was. I'm saying that if a person has an innate hatred of women, they can use a patriarchal point of view to spread the hatred.
and
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140662#msg140662 date=1309560410]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
They say that imitation is the highest form of flattery. In your case 'Retarded' you are just pathetic. You have no personality of your own and so copy an already existing profile. That is beyond lame, and just prove that you are nothing. You are nobody. I just hope the moderators/administrators will take appropriate action in either editing your profile or completely removing it for being a troll.
and
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140690#msg140690 date=1309614798]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Unworthy1,
While I still have the content of the posts, the quote function would not have illustrated how he copied my entire profile (name, picture and signature). My comments still stand and I'll add that 'Retarded' is also a spineless coward.
Do these reckless statements represent the beliefs and practices you seek to develop?
It has been over three weeks since July 1, 2011, when you posted your seemingly raging, totally dishonest, heretical, and slanderous post in this topic. Without any specific references, your post misrepresented to Father Patrick and to the other readers regarding my personal relationships and regarding my personal family relationships. Your post generally lied about and demonically mocked the revealed divine nature of our jealous (patriarchal) Holy Creator God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Your post lied by making self-serving misrepresentations of patriarchal Holy Bible passages out of their true spiritual context. Your post also blatantly misrepresented the traditional nature, beliefs, morals and pastoral practices of our Holy Apostolic Orthodox Christian Church and of our Holy Orthodox Fathers.
On July 4, and July 9, 2011, I posted; in this topic and in other topics where you were expressing your seemingly personal beliefs, theological speculations and often demeaning persuasions; respectful invitations for you to demonstrate the truth and credibility of your critical personal, spiritual and social insults, speculations and fabrications against me and my family, against God's Holy Word and against the traditions of the Holy Orthodox Church.
Quoted relevant excerpts from this topic are as follows: and Cephas, your seeming attempts to authenticate and support your points of view with rational, scriptural and patristic authorities in your posts to other discussion topics seem to reveal a secretive completely spurious nature of of all elements of your completely unsupported critical posts of July 1, 2011. Why didn't you provide, even one, attempted support of any of your seemingly fabricated factual, ecclesial, or theological statements? Does this glaring omission telegraph your silent "freudian" admission that all of your statements are fraudulent shams? Please authenticate your credibility and the integrity of this Coptic forum by proving or withdrawing all of your substantive statements in your relative posts. God's Holy Bible also provides His followers with His commandments for resolving their disputes. See, Mt. 18:15-35; 1 Cor. 5:1-6:20. Please consider similarly seeking this narrow, nearly deserted, path.
I've just realized that the God hating demonic feminism inspired foundation for your raging tirade against God's patriarchal family and gender codes seems to be the widely held, universal sign of hate and rebellion against the unchanging gender and family order requirements of our eternal Father/God/Creator/Final Judge. What is your personal agenda that God's uncompromising Words offend?
[quote author=????? link=topic=11418.msg140650#msg140650 date=1309549698]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Father bless!
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=11418.msg140647#msg140647 date=1309548050]
Why is a patriarchal point of view the same as hatred of women? I don't believe it is at all.
I never said it was. I'm saying that if a person has an innate hatred of women, they can use a patriarchal point of view to spread the hatred.
Much more prevalent, however, is the universal use, (as here?), of defense of demonic feminism to subtly (or violently- as in abortion/civil divorce, for example) promote hatred of our Unchanging, Eternal, Creator/Judge, Father, and His eternal commandments.
I have been reading this thread, and initially, I was glad someone is offering advice about how to reclaim some of his financial and legal powers. I agreed with what you were saying only to the extent that it helps miracleseek protect himself and his children from the abuse that they are definitely facing.
However, you are probably the most obnoxious person I have ever known and I am sure you were at least a major contributor to your own divorce. Also, instead of moving on, you have let your divorce turn into a long and annoying rant about how to put women in their place.
You focus too excessively on the duties of women to their husbands and don't seem to have given a moments thought to your duties to her. We submit to Christ and are obedient to him because of what he has first done for us. He died for us, and everything that he imposes on us is for our best interest anyway. My instinct is that if you had this kind of a relationship with your wife, or at least tried to, she would have been more likely to submit to you (but in a proper way and not your perverted interpretation of submission)
I hope that one day you will stop hiding behind your intellectual abilities so that a message like this would actually get through to you (I am confident it won't). Im a guy by the way
I still await a response to my questions from another thread:
[quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11899.msg142209#msg142209 date=1311987203]
[quote author=irishpilgrim link=topic=11899.msg142182#msg142182 date=1311952679]
A true Orthodox discussion of some of the dangers of modern ecumenism, including some of the dangers of Catholicism, written by a true Orthodox woman theologian, is available at: http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id15.html. Holy prayer and reading. Russian Orthodox can present another challenge to Coptic Christians, but I know of a young holy Coptic wife and mother from a Russian Orthodox background. Again, be careful, wise.
Wow, some radical stuff!
This book doesn't just suggest that there are dangers to ecumenism but calls it the "heresy of heresies." How can you call her a 'true Orthodox woman theologian'? Are you Oriental Orthodox? Did you read the forward? Did you read the book? Do you agree with what she has to say on these matters?
[quote=Ludmilla Perepiolkina's "Ecumenism - A Path to Perdition"]We cannot pray with Monophysites, who for fifteen hundred years have adhered to their Christological heresy.
This chapter of her book is particularly disturbing: Alliance in Falsehood -- Union with Monophysites
Mina?