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Rhyming "Madeehas"
What do you guys think of the idea of making English (or any other language) "madeehas" (NOT Doxologies) for any of the saints that contain the same things as the original ones (which I'm guessing were originally written in Arabic not Coptic, since they all seem to rhyme in Arabic) but make them so that they rhyme in that specific language. We made one for Archangel Michael in English; it's ok, although I think it could be better. Some of it sounds kind of childish, it was written by a 'tante' from our church.
If no one objects to the idea, we can start getting all those here and all those we know with poetic talents to start writing and editing each others' work.
If no one objects to the idea, we can start getting all those here and all those we know with poetic talents to start writing and editing each others' work.
Comments
it's ok, although I think it could be better. Some of it sound kind of childish, it was written by a 'tante' from our church.
that's what i am afraid of....childish word that end up having no meaning. yes, you rhymed a hymn but you destroyed the meaning.....can you post that madeha?
i like to follow of the rule of considering the "ease of singing." you translate them in a way that is easy to sing and when you can change some words to rhyme, you should ONLY if it doesn't interfere with "the ease of singing"
[quote author=aiernovi link=topic=11430.msg137859#msg137859 date=1305334424]
I think its a wonderful idea. Even if it didn't match the Arabic perfectly, I think it would be acceptable as long as theology expressed is sound/the words coincided with the facts of the saints' life. The southern diocese published a melodies book that has rhyming english and I think they did a pretty good job.
they have rhyming madayeh that were already done but nothing new. the new ones are strictly translated from the arabic and with not much considering most of the time.
The southern diocese published a melodies book that has rhyming english and I think they did a pretty good job.
really? I didn't know about that. Is it available online? Presentations?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11430.msg137860#msg137860 date=1305336591]
[quote author=the_least link=topic=11430.msg137851#msg137851 date=1305329483]
it's ok, although I think it could be better. Some of it sound kind of childish, it was written by a 'tante' from our church.
that's what i am afraid of....childish word that end up having no meaning. yes, you rhymed a hymn but you destroyed the meaning.....can you post that madeha?
This is why I mentioned Peer Editing and maybe even Abouna (native English speaker / Fr. Peter) / Bishop Editing.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11430.msg137860#msg137860 date=1305336591]
i like to follow of the rule of considering the "ease of singing." you translate them in a way that is easy to sing and when you can change some words to rhyme, you should ONLY if it doesn't interfere with "the ease of singing"
Hymns: yes, Doxologies: yes, Madeehas: No, I disagree, sometimes in Arabic Madeehas, I see things in there that do not add much significance but rather they are only in there because they rhyme.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11430.msg137860#msg137860 date=1305336591]
they have rhyming madayeh that were already done but nothing new. the new ones are strictly translated from the arabic and with not much considering most of the time.
didn't get what you're saying there... what do you mean by "nothing new" ?
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=11430.msg137860#msg137860 date=1305336591]
can you post that madeha?
Only if you promise not to make fun...lol... some of it sounds kind of cheesy... if you can fix it up, go for it!
Hail to you O Michael
The greatest Archangel
Angel of peace and joy
Servant of the Lord of Hosts
God gave you high ranks
Honours with the crowns
HE called you Michael
The full of great powers
Hail to you O Michael
A great angel in heaven
Compassion with wisdom
To you were given
God filled you with power
Gave you a sword of fire
Full of Courage and Victory
To defeat Satan the liar
You put Satan with his
Soldiers down to the earth
Fire became their food
And live forever in Hades
With amazing marvels
You did a lot of miracles
With Theopesti and Dorethous
Afomia and Aristarchus
All my bones and body
Get full of peace and joy
When I cheerfully say
Hail to you O Michael
Hail to you O Michael
The well known archangel
I Praise you with veneration
To the end of the generations
Hail to you O Michael
The defendant of the poor
Your intercessions
Are accepted for sure
Hail to you O Michael
Worker of the great wonders
Ask for fruits and water
And Make mighty miracles
Hail to you O Michael
Intercessor of all creation
Preventing disasters
For all Christian nations
Exposition of your name
Is in the mouth of the believers
All of us proclaim “O God
Of Michael the angel help us all
-AMEN-
Is this "tante" trained in the English language very well? Does she know of the differences between using certain words in certain cases?
Nope, she is a beginner.
Madeehas: No, I disagree, sometimes in Arabic Madeehas, I see things in there that do not add much significance but rather they are only in there because they rhyme.
you are forgetting something, the reason that madayeh in arabic need to rhyme is for them to be CHANTED!!! in the arab culture in general, rhyming is very important...if you hear older songs of Abdel-halim and Omo-kolthom and even recent stuff of mahmad mounir, many of their song rhyme in a way that follows the beat of the songs.....now don't think that i am saying lets follow worldly songs (even thoo old aghani like abdel-halim's and omokolthom were very different from what we have now). A madeha is a nice song for a person to hear, being a person who lives in egypt, who speaks arabic, who is effected by that culture to some certain extent and therefore the songs take a little from that culture to still keep the person's mind and heart within the Church while still being in the world. If you take that reasoning and apply it to english culture (in the states in general), hymns do not need to rhyme to fulfill that....and when you try really really hard, you get hymns that you might call "childish" (even thoo the one you posted is actually decent compared to what i have seen before in kiahk madayeh). didn't get what you're saying there... what do you mean by "nothing new" ?
the approach they take 90% of the time is a literal translation or a translation that gathers thoughts from what is intended to be said in the arabic but than fail miserably by making a huge sentence that is just too looooong to sing in one estekhon.
the approach they take 90% of the time is a literal translation or a translation that gathers thoughts from what is intended to be said in the arabic but than fail miserably by making a huge sentence that is just too looooong to sing in one estekhon.
I totally agree...sometimes, a literal translation is not enough...a "sense" translation, if you will, would be what is needed.
If you take that reasoning and apply it to english culture (in the states in general), hymns do not need to rhyme to fulfill that
are you saying English songs don't rhyme? because most of them do. And even if you don't think so, doesn't the madeeha sound so much nicer when it rhymes?
but to keep things clear: you are not objecting to the idea, you're just saying there is no need, right?
[quote author=the_least link=topic=11430.msg137933#msg137933 date=1305411761]
are you saying English songs don't rhyme? because most of them do. And even if you don't think so, doesn't the madeeha sound so much nicer when it rhymes?
actually they don't.....and i know from experience.
Come to us oh three children / whom Christ our God has lifted
Now, that quite clearly doesn't rhyme, but if you think about it from a production standpoint (in terms of what you do with your tongue to make the sounds in the words), it's identical in terms of the tongue positions and voicing (in fancypants linguistics talk, [n] is a voiced alveolar nasal, and [d] is a voiced alveolar plosive/stop). So you have your tongue in the same position at the end of both words, the vocal chords vibrating for both (as opposed to voiceless sounds like [t]), and, thanks to English's tendency to neutralize unstressed vowels to schwa [ə], the same environment (ə_#) for both sounds. Again, it's not exactly a rhyme, but it's very close, and our brains process it that way. Compare the [-en] and [-ed] sequence in the above near-couplet to another line, say, "Take off the old man / and put on the new and superior one" and you'll see what I mean. In that case we have what seems like it should be a closer rhyme if we base it on the last sound in each (they both end in [n]), but the surrounding environments are so different (æ_# for "man"; ə_# for "one") that they really don't come out sounding very similar at all.
Anyway...so, yeah, rhyming is very difficult in English! I don't know that it isn't necessarily a requirement in sung texts (plenty of English songs rhyme, of course), but I would say that it shouldn't be a requirement in the context of religious chant. Orthodoxy must trump pleasing melodies every time, or else what is to stop the American-born Orthodox from going to the nearest Protestant-mega church because they have hymns that sound like top 40 radio hits? That said, I would agree that getting a native English speaker to look over any English productions is probably a good idea, because there are many nuances to the language that a second-language learner might not intuitively understand (as with any language) that could help make the text a bit more natural-sounding and appropriate to be sung by English-speaking converts and adult learners in the church.
actually they don't.....and i know from experience.
mina, you got to be more clear man :P
are you saying English songs don't rhyme or madeehas don't sound nicer when they rhyme?
dzheremi, wow!!! nice post!!! it seems, from what you're saying, that it will be hard but still "doable" right? btw, since you're good with the pronunciation stuff, how do you pronounce your username :D
Come to us oh three children / whom Christ our God has lifted
i like what you've said....but just one thing, the example you provided is from the coptic psali, Aripsalin--that is not a madeha. In similar hymns, there is one more constraint: COPTIC as a source.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=11430.msg137992#msg137992 date=1305506010]
mina, you got to be more clear man :P
are you saying English songs don't rhyme or madeehas don't sound nicer when they rhyme?
if you understand dzheremi's well, then you understood what i am trying to say.
You're right, Mina, it's not a madiha, but the same principle applies no matter what the source is.
yes.....but not as strictly is in a madeha. many times if you translate from the arabic, you can change the order of words and even the words themselves, but still get the same general understanding behind what's being chanted.
I see. I meant that the issues with the English would be the same since it would be the same language no matter what, but okay. I'd be interested to see some examples of what you're describing, though this might not be the place for it...
it'll be hard to remember a specific case in the madayeh translations i have seen sense i end up changing them myself :).
From my research on liturgical texts, the major characteristic of the Coptic psali is acrostic structure. There are some exceptions but I consider the exceptions are not psalies. Acrostic means the first letter in each stanza spells out the alphabet (sometimes only 28 lettered Greek alphabet, sometimes the 35 lettered Coptic alphabet). In Aripsalin, it is the Greek alphabet.
The second characteristic of Coptic psalies is meter. The Adam psalies have 4 or 5 meters per line, while the Batos has 7, 8, or 9 meters. Meter influences the music of the hymn.
Some Coptic psalies do rhyme. Many don't. Dzheremi happened to pick one that does rhyme but not 100% (depending on how you define a rhyme). Dzheremi showed us that two words can rhyme phonologically, yet be a completely different spelling or ending or inflection. So if you look at Aripsalin, most verses will have a rhyme at the end of each line. The first verse rhymes are ashf, kosf, shwshf, respectively. Phonologically, they all move your lips the same way even though one has the vowel "a" and another has the "o" and another has "w". So there are rhymes in Coptic psalies. Rhyming, as well as acrostic structure, aids in memorization.
On the other hand, the major characteristic of Arabic poetry is rhyme. There is never any acrostic structure and meter is rarely used.
Greek poetry often uses meter, but rarely acrostic structure and rhyme. I think the Odyssey utilizes meter and some rhyme.
English poetry has many characteristics. Rhyme is not a popular one. In fact, rhyme is often utilized in children's poetry and folk music. Many songs rhyme, especially rap. But many English poems don't rhyme.
Personally, I think the tunes of liturgical "madeyah" are not suitable for English. The tunes favor melodic stress on the ultimate or penultimate syllable. English favors syllablic stress on the first or second syllable. What ends up happening is the tune forces you to say words like spirit as /spi RIT/ (wrong pronunciation) instead of /SPI' rit/ (right pronunciation). I think in order to make an English madeha or English melody, you need to rework the tune so you can fit the words. You see this with song writers. You have a tune as the framework or core of the song. Then words are placed and the tune changes slightly. Changing the words, or offering another loose translation, is one way to minimize the net musical change.
So the point of all of this is that Coptic hymns have a style. Arabic has a different style. English has another different style. Hymns were designed with a specific style. Trying to apply one style in another language will have a negative effect on poetic and musical nature of the hymn. If you violate poetic style, you will inevitablly violate musical style too.
;)
Unfortunately, as Coptic was replaced gradually by Arabic and Coptic literature decreased, composition of Coptic liturgical texts became frayed
when you listen to to a song that rhymes, it sticks in your head, I wrote a few songs, and I know a few people that keep repeating parts in their heads, if you listen to the tamgeed or a madeeha in arabic, it will be so pleasent to your ears, because of the rhyming and the flow... for a while I translated the madayeh, but I thought it was usless... because if you sometimes take the madeeha and translate it word for word, there are questionable statements said, for the sake of rhyming.
I have a question for you, who wrote these madayah? its a regular person with a talent, and just wrote it, its not of coptic origin so that we need it word for word, we can even make a whole new one for the english speakers... I think its a great idea, and I AM IN... we should make them and distribute it to the church, even make a book...
neshkor Allah, akhadna el baraka
The feast of the martyrdom of the Strong Saint Abba Moses the Black is coming up on July 1st, so let's try to do this before then.
Here is the Arabic Madeha: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1614
and it's translation: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B9G5kPbVrtURY2E1YTI4MjEtYTg0NC00NTE3LThiZDQtMTYzNmYzYWExY2Q4&hl=en_GB&authkey=CLn757YI
his story from the synaxarium: http://copticchurch.net/synaxarium/10_24.html#1
This next link is in google docs and anyone can view and edit it. This is how we can all work on it together.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o46scUHZnhMDnng6DRfRQqDj1U8iW8y_Yc5VHmjSJ-U/edit?hl=en_GB&authkey=CLf5zJoB
if anyone has a better idea, let me know... especially if we can get versioning.
Let's do this!
I know I got put off by the theme of this thread initially discussing Arabic and English songs, but now that the subject changed a while ago, and I wasn't there, feels like I missed out on so much. First things first: ALLAH 3ALEIK YA REMENKIMI. Aywa keda, let's say it out loud: translation loses the hymns their flavour. Please all again and again, there is nothing like liturgical madayeh. That was an introduction since the church adopted translation to Arabic that doesn't have any ritual value or place. They should only be treated as carols, and that's it, not to be sung in liturgies. But who really listens? When even ya kol el sefoof is another example? I guess that completely agrees with what imikhail says....
Oujai
Please listen to this podcast: http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/svsvoices/2011_commencement_address. It is from an Eastern Orthodox source but it effectively addresses the problem of languages and church hymns.
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=11430.msg139075#msg139075 date=1307434911]
EKhrestos anesty
I know I got put off by the theme of this thread initially discussing Arabic and English songs, but now that the subject changed a while ago, and I wasn't there, feels like I missed out on so much. First things first: ALLAH 3ALEIK YA REMENKIMI. Aywa keda, let's say it out loud: translation loses the hymns their flavour. Please all again and again, there is nothing like liturgical madayeh. That was an introduction since the church adopted translation to Arabic that doesn't have any ritual value or place. They should only be treated as carols, and that's it, not to be sung in liturgies. But who really listens? When even ya kol el sefoof is another example? I guess that completely agrees with what imikhail says....
Oujai
Yes, translations are usually not as beautiful as the original, however they are in a language the person can understand. The theological poetry of St. Gregory the Theologian was originally written in Greek and is certainly wonderful in Greek. However I can not understand more than several words of Greek so they become of no effect unless I can read them in English. The words don't flow as well in English, but they maintain their beautiful meaning.
It is also interesting that the Liturgy of St. Basil was first written in Greek and then translated to Coptic. If you listen to it in Greek you will find they flow beautifully but you can't understand a word, so you are not praising God, but rather saying beautiful sounding yet essentially meaningless words.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, and I understand what you are saying. However, you can efficiently speak Coptic, and it is too much to expect of people to learn a new language as a prerequisite to praising God. Coptic is great for hymns as long as it can be understood by the congregation. For example I have no problems saying Aripsalin in Coptic because I know it so well in English that I know the meaning of the words in Coptic and can therefore truly glorify God with it.
Lastly, I wish to say that I understand your zeal for Coptic... But there is a need for translations or else we no longer praise God through the hymn (most of us aren't fluent speakers ;D), as we might as well be speaking in tongues. I hope that no one misinterprets this: I am not against Coptic, and do not advocate its elimination liturgically. There are times when we can use Coptic when it wouldn't be a hindrance: such as during short hymns like Taishori, where people can memorize the meaning, during the seven short prayers where the priest can pray in coptic, and the deacon can respond in English so the people can respond Lord Have Mercy knowing what they are praying for. There are many other times we can use Coptic, but its use should not warrant the elimination of translations as they are good and necessary.
Dear anba Bola,
I think I missed you and missed your opinions, as I didn't mean at all to allude to using Coptic over other languages (at least in this thread as opposed to previous posts), but I can see your point of the necessities of translation. I never said no to this in the first place, but my opinion is known enough by now that I won't repeat for the sake of not muddling threads up. All I wanted to say is there are many, not only a few bishops who teach against using madayeh in general after the Liturgy finishes. Lastly, I'm sorry won't be able to listen to the podcast till next week as I have a very important exam on Tuesday, and I hope you and everybody else not forget me in your prayers...
Oujai
The feast of the martyrdom of the Strong Saint Abba Moses the Black is coming up on July 1st, so let's try to do this before then.
Here is the Arabic Madeha: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1614
There is also another madeha that i translated from the arabic i received from the Texas monastery:
http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2457
Ekhrestos anesty
Dear anba Bola,
I think I missed you and missed your opinions, as I didn't mean at all to allude to using Coptic over other languages (at least in this thread as opposed to previous posts), but I can see your point of the necessities of translation. I never said no to this in the first place, but my opinion is known enough by now that I won't repeat for the sake of not muddling threads up. All I wanted to say is there are many, not only a few bishops who teach against using madayeh in general after the Liturgy finishes. Lastly, I'm sorry won't be able to listen to the podcast till next week as I have a very important exam on Tuesday, and I hope you and everybody else not forget me in your prayers...
Oujai
I apologize. I misinterpreted what you meant. I guess i am too hotheaded about this issue. Anyway you are definitely right about not using madeyeh during liturgy. God be with you on your exam.
Thanks very much dear anba Bola. My exam is on Tuesday so please don't forget to pray for me on that day especially, and all the other days as well...
Oujai
Please all again and again, there is nothing like liturgical madayeh. That was an introduction since the church adopted translation to Arabic that doesn't have any ritual value or place. They should only be treated as carols, and that's it, not to be sung in liturgies. Oujai
I wanted this so that it would be sung in the tamgeed in vespers. Is this wrong too?