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Let this cup pass from me
Im sure you all know what I am about to ask.. Im looking for a real theological explanation for this verse though, I dont want to here "it was his human side talking" we all know that, I want to know what EXACTLY he meant by this, everything our Lord says he has meaning behind it. We all know Jesus CHOSE to go up on the cross, it was his choice, but why do we see here that he prays to the father saying 'if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, never the less, not as I will, but as thou wilt'.
I guess you can say, he meant it was the will of God that he took flesh and allowed himself to be put on the cross for the sake of mankind, but it there a more theological explanation for this?
I guess you can say, he meant it was the will of God that he took flesh and allowed himself to be put on the cross for the sake of mankind, but it there a more theological explanation for this?
Comments
The cup that Christ is referring to is the sins of all mankind. This is a very heavy cup that only God Himself could bare, so we need to understand that Christ's humanity was beyond the feeling of grief. We also need to understand that this expression was used by the Jews themselves in times of hardship. It may seem like Christ is asking for this not to happen but in reality, He is anxious to fulfill the will of the Father. He also solidifies this by saying "Yet not what I will, but what You will." So, I guess you can say that the first part of this verse was an expression of the grief and burden of all the sins of man and the wanting for it to be done with. The second part of the prayer shows us that Christ's will is the same as that of the Father's and that they are both One. Hope this helps!
i dont know, maybe it was just a use of language. he knew the cross was the only way, so He's not literally asking the Father "is it possible for me not to bear the cup?" .
it could also represent how much suffering he knew he would endure. nobody enjoys being crucified.
John 3:16 where it says: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
But if the church believes that His divinity and humanity were always united, how could the two conflict with each other? Is it the same concept as when the body conflicts with the spirit, even though they're both the same being?
There was no conflict. Christ's human will was the same as His divine will. That said, He did have to struggle against the flesh because that is what being human is all about. When He fasted, he felt hunger; otherwise, He would not be human at all. Even though there was struggle, Christ's will never deviated. I apologize if I confused you.
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=10909.msg132196#msg132196 date=1299451628]
But if the church believes that His divinity and humanity were always united, how could the two conflict with each other? Is it the same concept as when the body conflicts with the spirit, even though they're both the same being?
There was no conflict. Christ's human will was the same as His divine will.
But this verse seems to be more than just a struggle against the flesh. It seems (to me) that it's a matter of will.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=10909.msg132214#msg132214 date=1299462783]
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=10909.msg132196#msg132196 date=1299451628]
But if the church believes that His divinity and humanity were always united, how could the two conflict with each other? Is it the same concept as when the body conflicts with the spirit, even though they're both the same being?
There was no conflict. Christ's human will was the same as His divine will.
But this verse seems to be more than just a struggle against the flesh. It seems (to me) that it's a matter of will.
Your wrong.
God bless
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=10909.msg132216#msg132216 date=1299464115]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=10909.msg132214#msg132214 date=1299462783]
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=10909.msg132196#msg132196 date=1299451628]
But if the church believes that His divinity and humanity were always united, how could the two conflict with each other? Is it the same concept as when the body conflicts with the spirit, even though they're both the same being?
There was no conflict. Christ's human will was the same as His divine will.
But this verse seems to be more than just a struggle against the flesh. It seems (to me) that it's a matter of will.
Your wrong.
God bless
I think maybe, in terms of will, Jesus was saying he does not want to suffer, as NO REAL human WANTS to feel pain, him asking the father if there is any other way to do this was an exaggeration of how bad he knew it would be, it was an exact expression of how heavy the burden of sin was for a HUMAN to carry it out.
Remember, it was a HUMAN that had to perform the sacrifice for salvation to be given to all humans, thus it was Christ, the MAN for us, who would have to do this without letting the divinity of his Godhead interfere.
At the same time, him saying let your will be done shows that it was not the will of the flesh to go up on the cross, quite the contrary, the spirit was fighting the flesh, this is how we know he was truly human, it was the decision of his spirit, the decision of God to put his flesh up on the cross against it's own humanly desires.
I think this whole thing was more of him saying "in words" the conflict he felt between the flesh and the spirit. Jesus HIMSELF desired to go up on the cross, but his flesh desired not to. Likewise when he fasted, his flesh DESIRED that he eat, yet he himself desired to fast for us. If in fact his flesh never desired to eat, then he didnt really fast at all. It really shows his will and how much grief he faced at that moment, the amount of stress and anxiety to the point where his humanity cried out "don't do it", his spirit cried out in response saying I WILL do it, against the will of my flesh.
I hope that this message finds you well, as we come to the completion of the first week of the Great Lent. Permit me to provide some excerpts from the Church Fathers concerning this particular topic:
You have heard Christ say, "Father, if You will, remove this cup from Me." Was then His Passion an involuntary act? Was the need for Him to suffer or the voice of those who plotted against Him stronger than His own will? We say no. His passion was a voluntary act, although in another respect it was severe, because it implied the rejection and destruction of the synagogue of the Jews... Since it was impossible for Christ not to endure the passion, He submitted to it, because God the Father so will it with Him. ~St. Cyril of Alexandria
It is not clear to all that He said this as a lesson to us to ask help in our trials only from God, and to prefer God's will to our own, and as a proof that He did actually appropriate to Himself the attributes of our nature... [He also teaches] us to prefer God's will to our own. For that lone is impossible which is against God's will and permission. ~St. John of Damascus
Whatever is written concerning our Savior in His human nature, should be considered as applying to the whole race of mankind; because He took our body and exhibited Himself human infirmity. Now of this cause John has written thus, "They sought to take Him: but no man laid hands on Him, because His hour was not yet come" (John 7:30). And before it came, He Himself said to His Mother, "My hour is not yet come" (John 2:4) and to them who were called His brethren, "My time is not yet come" (John 7:6). And again, when His time was come, He said to the disciples, "Sleep now, and take your rest: for behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners" (Matthew 26:45). ~St. Athanasius
It is unlikely that He did not know whether it was possible or not, or that He would oppose the Father's will. This is the language of Him who came down and assumed our nature. However, this is not the language of human nature... the passage does not mean that the Son has a special will of His own besides that of the Father but that He does not have a special will. The meaning would be, "Not to do My own will, for there is none of my apart from, but that which is common to Me and You. Since we have One Godhead, so we have one will. ~St. Gregory Nazianzen
He knew what He was saying to His Father, and was well aware that this chalice could pass from Him. But He had come to drink it for everyone, in order to acquit, through this chalice, the debt of everyone, [a debt] which the prophets and martyrs could not pay with their death... He assumed flesh. He clothed Himself with weakness eating when hungry; becoming tired after working; become overcome by sleep when weary. It was necessary, when the time for His death arrived, that all things that have to do with the flesh would be fulfilled then... Or it was to teach His disciples to confide their life and death to God. If He, who is wise of account of the wisdom of God, asked for what was fitting for Him, how much more [should] ordinary people surrender their will to the One who knows all things. ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Pray for my weaknesses,
childoforthodoxy
I think maybe, in terms of will, Jesus was saying he does not want to suffer, as NO REAL human WANTS to feel pain, him asking the father if there is any other way to do this was an exaggeration of how bad he knew it would be, it was an exact expression of how heavy the burden of sin was for a HUMAN to carry it out.
Remember, it was a HUMAN that had to perform the sacrifice for salvation to be given to all humans, thus it was Christ, the MAN for us, who would have to do this without letting the divinity of his Godhead interfere.
At the same time, him saying let your will be done shows that it was not the will of the flesh to go up on the cross, quite the contrary, the spirit was fighting the flesh, this is how we know he was truly human, it was the decision of his spirit, the decision of God to put his flesh up on the cross against it's own humanly desires.
I think this whole thing was more of him saying "in words" the conflict he felt between the flesh and the spirit. Jesus HIMSELF desired to go up on the cross, but his flesh desired not to. Likewise when he fasted, his flesh DESIRED that he eat, yet he himself desired to fast for us. If in fact his flesh never desired to eat, then he didnt really fast at all. It really shows his will and how much grief he faced at that moment, the amount of stress and anxiety to the point where his humanity cried out "don't do it", his spirit cried out in response saying I WILL do it, against the will of my flesh.
First I would like to thank ChildofOrthodoxy for posting the quotes of the fathers, especially since this is so crucial and necessary for us in order to study the Bible correctly. That said, I am not very happy with how Meena_Ameen is wording things. To say that his flesh desired not to be crucified is a little dangerous to say. Whether you are referring to the humanity or divinity, Christ's will never deviated for a moment. Yes He felt the pain and suffering that we do, but despite this, His human will was perfectly in sync with his Divinity. In other words, nothing affected His will whatsoever. Let us be careful with our wording.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=10909.msg132221#msg132221 date=1299467555]
I think maybe, in terms of will, Jesus was saying he does not want to suffer, as NO REAL human WANTS to feel pain, him asking the father if there is any other way to do this was an exaggeration of how bad he knew it would be, it was an exact expression of how heavy the burden of sin was for a HUMAN to carry it out.
Remember, it was a HUMAN that had to perform the sacrifice for salvation to be given to all humans, thus it was Christ, the MAN for us, who would have to do this without letting the divinity of his Godhead interfere.
At the same time, him saying let your will be done shows that it was not the will of the flesh to go up on the cross, quite the contrary, the spirit was fighting the flesh, this is how we know he was truly human, it was the decision of his spirit, the decision of God to put his flesh up on the cross against it's own humanly desires.
I think this whole thing was more of him saying "in words" the conflict he felt between the flesh and the spirit. Jesus HIMSELF desired to go up on the cross, but his flesh desired not to. Likewise when he fasted, his flesh DESIRED that he eat, yet he himself desired to fast for us. If in fact his flesh never desired to eat, then he didnt really fast at all. It really shows his will and how much grief he faced at that moment, the amount of stress and anxiety to the point where his humanity cried out "don't do it", his spirit cried out in response saying I WILL do it, against the will of my flesh.
First I would like to thank ChildofOrthodoxy for posting the quotes of the fathers, especially since this is so crucial and necessary for us in order to study the Bible correctly. That said, I am not very happy with how Meena_Ameen is wording things. To say that his flesh desired not to be crucified is a little dangerous to say. Whether you are referring to the humanity or divinity, Christ's will never deviated for a moment. Yes He felt the pain and suffering that we do, but despite this, His human will was perfectly in sync with his Divinity. In other words, nothing affected His will whatsoever. Let us be careful with our wording.
Perhaps I wasnt clear enough, when I say his flesh desired not to be crucified I didnt mean HE HIMSELF.. there is one will, you said his human will is perfectly in sync with his divinity.. I dont think there is such this as his "human will", its just HIS will, him being God. When I said his flesh desired not to be crucified I mean just for example, when he fasted his flesh desired to eat food, like I said before, if his flesh did NOT desire to eat, than he obviously did not fast, he didnt "give up anything", it wasnt until he fasted and became hungry that satan was able to tempt him in his humanity saying make these stones bread. Satan would not go up to someone who just had a full course meal and say turn these stones into bread and eat them.
My point was that when he said to his father "if it be possible let this cup pass from me", it was simply and expression of the flesh in words to show just how bad his suffering was, the following verse "let your will be done and not mine" confirms however that this was entirely his decision.
I don't think its right to say that because he was God this whole thing was "easy" for him, because we know he did NOT let his divinity get in the way of his humanity. Therefore as a human it MUST have been difficult for him, nothing was impossible for him because he was God, but like us, things were difficult for him because he chose to do these things as a human.
Please forgive me and correct me if i said something wrong.