Notice that it separates "homosexuals" from "sodomites," which is often confused into one and the same thing.
Just to let you know, there are plenty of scholarly sources that have shown the translation to be wrong. That's not what the Scriptures say in Greek, and that's not what the Greek translates to. Sadly, people are so ignorant that they think the KJV (and other versions based on the KJV) is the inspired Word of God, that they won't even accept that the translation is bad, and will continue to use it.
So if you have the "right" translation, please enlighten us. Provide your sources, don't just say I have sources and hide behind them. If they are truly scholarly and of merit(and not simply people with an agenda) then share them. FYI for all out there, the NKJV is not based by what the coptic church uses as far as the coptic bible goes, we just don't have the translation. the next best thing is the OSB
The first word, μαλακοὶ, means greed or lack of self-control. That comes straight from the expert of all Greek terms, Aristotle, in his Nicomachean Ethics, 7.7.4-5.
The second word, ἀρσενοκοῖται, has been used by Church Fathers, such as Hippolytus and Eusebius, to describe the forceful use (i.e. rape) of young slave ("pet") boys in pedarastic relations, which was very common in Greece.
Both are certainly sins, and both certainly have nothing to do with homosexuality.
Before you jump on me for that, I was only half serious. What I'm trying to say, though, is that maybe either meaning can be argued for; but we have to be careful not to manipulate the scripture to fit what we want it to say.
I can always contribute a better translation to Google. Google doesn't win, it learns.
And TITL, you're wrong. The word does not mean homosexual, nor is the practice of raping slave boys homosexuality - in very much the same way that a man raping a young girl is not heterosexuality. Rape is evil.
[quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=10127.msg124576#msg124576 date=1292382407] Please educate yourself and read the footnotes:
English Bible Quotations are from the World English Bible (WEB).
Are you saying that every single Bible translation out there is wrong? That no one got it right? ALL of the credited translations, whether or not accepted by the COC, have that written as "homosexuals."
[quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=10127.msg124580#msg124580 date=1292382724] [quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=10127.msg124576#msg124576 date=1292382407] Please educate yourself and read the footnotes:
English Bible Quotations are from the World English Bible (WEB).
Are you saying that every single Bible translation out there is wrong? That no one got it right? ALL of the credited translations, whether or not accepted by the COC, have that written as "homosexuals."
I don't care about translations. Translations are human efforts, carrying their own cultural biases. If you want to make a theological or ethical claim about what Scripture says, you should go back to the language that the authors of Scripture used, because what they mean by a term may have been translated as something that is completely irrelevant to the time it was actually written (as is the case in this homosexuality discussion).
And just because it's approved by the COC, it doesn't mean it's accurate. The same Bibles approved by the COC goes against the theological structure of the Orthodox (and Catholic) churches by calling the "presbyteroi" as "elders" instead of the actual term meaning "priests" or "intercessors."
[quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=10127.msg124589#msg124589 date=1292383443] I don't care about translations. Translations are human efforts, carrying their own cultural biases. If you want to make a theological or ethical claim about what Scripture says, you should go back to the language that the authors of Scripture used, because what they mean by a term may have been translated as something that is completely irrelevant to the time it was actually written (as is the case in this homosexuality discussion).
What is this, Islam?! God intended for ALL PEOPLE to be able to read his word. Accordingly, the Bible has been translated into every major language in the world. There is nothing wrong with trusting a credited translation.
[quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=10127.msg124589#msg124589 date=1292383443] And just because it's approved by the COC, it doesn't mean it's accurate. The same Bibles approved by the COC goes against the theological structure of the Orthodox (and Catholic) churches by calling the "presbyteroi" as "elders" instead of the actual term meaning "priests" or "intercessors."
That is why I said, "whether or not it's approved by the COC." I'll do my research before answering the second part of that.
And just because it's approved by the COC, it doesn't mean it's accurate. The same Bibles approved by the COC goes against the theological structure of the Orthodox (and Catholic) churches by calling the "presbyteroi" as "elders" instead of the actual term meaning "priests" or "intercessors."
Who said that we don't translate Presbyteroi as priest? Look at the liturgy books.
I'm sure you've read about Sodom and Gomorrah in the Old Testament. In the book of Genesis, Chapter 18, verse 20, it says:
"And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave."
Later on in Chapter 19, it talks about when the Angels came to Lot:
"Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally. 6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, "please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 "See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my room." 9 And they said, "Stand back!" Then they said, "This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them." So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door. 12 Then he men said to Lot, "have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in this city-take them out of this place! 13 "For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
So my question to you is: What is that sin that the Lord is talking about? What did the men of Sodom mean when they said "Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally"? Why did Lot reply and say: ""please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly"? What is wicked about what those men wanted to do? Why did he offer to give his daughters to those men instead and despite that, they insisted on forcing their way into this house? To do what? Why did the men that first entered Lot's house (the Angels sent by the Lord) struck the city men of Sodom with blindness? What did these men do or wanted to do so that the angels, at God's command, struck them with blindness? And finally, what is that great sin that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah did that the Lord ordered it to be burned?
The scriptures clearly say that those who entered Lot's house where "men" not children. So
[quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=10127.msg124570#msg124570 date=1292382080] And TITL, you're wrong. The word does not mean homosexual, nor is the practice of raping slave boys homosexuality - in very much the same way that a man raping a young girl is not heterosexuality. Rape is evil.
wow....now you are not only playing around with greek but with english....GREAT!!!
maybe merriam-webster would help us here: ho·mo·sex·u·al adj \ˌhō-mə-ˈsek-sh(ə-)wəl, -ˈsek-shəl\ Definition of HOMOSEXUAL 1 : of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex 2 : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homosexuality)
SEX IS SEX!!!! in rape or in other cases. homosexuality sex is also so.....despite it became a form of rape or not. to think otherwise is very worrying to me because if you can't discern between this, there is no point to talk to you about anything else.......... in an argument, if you just keep denying the facts that you yourself can't comprehend, than you will never comprehend the whole truth behind the arguemtn.
[quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=10127.msg124548#msg124548 date=1292378065] The reaction in this forum is ridiculous.
The blogger only wants to raise awareness about gay Coptic Christians around the world, and more importantly, he's REACHING OUT to gay Coptic Christians who feel persecuted by the Church. This person is trying to get gay Christians to remain Christian and remain who they are, as they identify themselves, because that does not go against Christ. There are many people who are gays and live more saintly lives than anyone of us could even begin to imagine - and yes, there were saints who were gay, but no priest or bishop wants to talk about THOSE SAINTS because it goes against what they preach. Amen, Amen, I say to you, they will get what they deserve.
It's about time gay people stop fearing Christianity, and it's about time that Christians embrace and love anyone who's gay regardless of their orientation.
Do not judge people by their orientations, just you no longer judge them by the stereotypes of skin colour. Having an orientation, which is natural to the human person, is not a sin, nor can it be changed. In this blog, the blogger is merely mentioning what it's like having the orientation, the struggles he faced dealing with the orientation in his life, the absolute failure of ex-gay therapies (which Coptic priests still blindly advocate), and his commitment to the Christian faith despite all he heard and saw from Coptic (and other Christian) people. This is something worth admiring, listening to, and engaging with in our thoughts as Christians, who are trying to improve the world and bring about social justice for all people.
You know...God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
I hope that this message finds you all well in Christ. I think that it is important that we take a step back at this time and evaluate the season in which we find ourselves. We are currently supposed to be in a time of fast, a time of self-reflection, introspection, and confronting our own shortcomings, so that we may grow in love and in faith in the Truth. Our focus is not only ourselves, but ourselves in relation to Christ, He whose Incarnation we will celebrate in just a few short weeks. He, who out of His never-ending love for mankind, "being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage; rather, He made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:6-8). Let us even examine the words that immediately precede these well-known verses: "Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from His love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus."
My fellow children of Orthodoxy, I ask that in this time of the fast, we step away from such discussions as these. This particular discussion will not yield any beneficial fruit at the present time, in my humble opinion. Neither side is in a mindset to yield, and we only continue to propagate feelings that are, at their root, not loving, as is evidenced by several posts that are present here. These forums are in existence to elucidate that which the Orthodox Church teaches its flock to those who seek guidance and knowledge; these forums are not designed to question the validity of the Orthodox life of prayer, a questioning whose goal is to change the position of the Orthodox Church. The Church will not change, as it is not only Orthodox but also Orthopraxis. Nor is there any power in these forums to bring about such change. Additionally, these forums are frequented by a large number of youth, and this discussion is currently of no benefit to a single one of them.
The Church's head is our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, and we are to strive to be members of this Body of Christ, whose unification we find in Christ by the Holy Spirit. We are not called to be heads, directing the Body of Christ where we deem fit, but are to align ourselves with that Word of God, who guides the Church and makes us a true Church.
I, personally, do not see that either side will yield on this particular matter, and so, for the sake of preserving our love for one another, I ask that each party remove themselves from this particular topic. This is not to concede defeat, but rather, to focus on that which is Good and True, that which is appropriate at this present time, so that we may all grow in love and faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ. I cannot lock this thread, but ask that no more responses be posted concerning this topic at the present time. Even if one of the parties is to post a response beyond this, I ask that the other party restrain themselves from responding.
We are called to be loving Christians, whose faith we have received by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, through the Orthodox Church, by the writings of the Fathers, on the Holy Scripture. We all need to recognize the need that we all have to align ourselves to this True faith, and I pray that we all pray for one another in doing so. I truly mean that we should pray for one another, and ask that as you all read this, that you stop for a minute, stand from where you are reading this from, and pray for one another, that God's will be done, and that His hand guides us in the path of peace, love, and righteousness.
May God shed His light on us and strengthen our resolve in being true followers of Christ, childoforthodoxy
Comments
Notice that it separates "homosexuals" from "sodomites," which is often confused into one and the same thing.
Just to let you know, there are plenty of scholarly sources that have shown the translation to be wrong. That's not what the Scriptures say in Greek, and that's not what the Greek translates to. Sadly, people are so ignorant that they think the KJV (and other versions based on the KJV) is the inspired Word of God, that they won't even accept that the translation is bad, and will continue to use it.
By the way, I'm not sure what your denomination is, but New King James is the only translation accepted by the Coptic Orthodox Church.
That's the funniest translation ever.
Notice that it separates "homosexuals" from "sodomites," which is often confused into one and the same thing.
That's irrelevant; it says that neither will inherit the Kingdom of God!
The first word, μαλακοὶ, means greed or lack of self-control. That comes straight from the expert of all Greek terms, Aristotle, in his Nicomachean Ethics, 7.7.4-5.
The second word, ἀρσενοκοῖται, has been used by Church Fathers, such as Hippolytus and Eusebius, to describe the forceful use (i.e. rape) of young slave ("pet") boys in pedarastic relations, which was very common in Greece.
Both are certainly sins, and both certainly have nothing to do with homosexuality.
And TITL, you're wrong. The word does not mean homosexual, nor is the practice of raping slave boys homosexuality - in very much the same way that a man raping a young girl is not heterosexuality. Rape is evil.
English Bible Quotations are from the World English Bible (WEB).
Please educate yourself and read the footnotes:
English Bible Quotations are from the World English Bible (WEB).
Are you saying that every single Bible translation out there is wrong? That no one got it right? ALL of the credited translations, whether or not accepted by the COC, have that written as "homosexuals."
[quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=10127.msg124576#msg124576 date=1292382407]
Please educate yourself and read the footnotes:
English Bible Quotations are from the World English Bible (WEB).
Are you saying that every single Bible translation out there is wrong? That no one got it right? ALL of the credited translations, whether or not accepted by the COC, have that written as "homosexuals."
I don't care about translations. Translations are human efforts, carrying their own cultural biases. If you want to make a theological or ethical claim about what Scripture says, you should go back to the language that the authors of Scripture used, because what they mean by a term may have been translated as something that is completely irrelevant to the time it was actually written (as is the case in this homosexuality discussion).
And just because it's approved by the COC, it doesn't mean it's accurate. The same Bibles approved by the COC goes against the theological structure of the Orthodox (and Catholic) churches by calling the "presbyteroi" as "elders" instead of the actual term meaning "priests" or "intercessors."
I don't care about translations. Translations are human efforts, carrying their own cultural biases. If you want to make a theological or ethical claim about what Scripture says, you should go back to the language that the authors of Scripture used, because what they mean by a term may have been translated as something that is completely irrelevant to the time it was actually written (as is the case in this homosexuality discussion).
What is this, Islam?! God intended for ALL PEOPLE to be able to read his word. Accordingly, the Bible has been translated into every major language in the world. There is nothing wrong with trusting a credited translation.
[quote author=Gay4XC link=topic=10127.msg124589#msg124589 date=1292383443]
And just because it's approved by the COC, it doesn't mean it's accurate. The same Bibles approved by the COC goes against the theological structure of the Orthodox (and Catholic) churches by calling the "presbyteroi" as "elders" instead of the actual term meaning "priests" or "intercessors."
That is why I said, "whether or not it's approved by the COC."
I'll do my research before answering the second part of that.
Who said that we don't translate Presbyteroi as priest? Look at the liturgy books.
I'm sure you've read about Sodom and Gomorrah in the Old Testament. In the book of Genesis, Chapter 18, verse 20, it says: Later on in Chapter 19, it talks about when the Angels came to Lot: So my question to you is: What is that sin that the Lord is talking about?
What did the men of Sodom mean when they said "Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally"?
Why did Lot reply and say: ""please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly"? What is wicked about what those men wanted to do?
Why did he offer to give his daughters to those men instead and despite that, they insisted on forcing their way into this house? To do what?
Why did the men that first entered Lot's house (the Angels sent by the Lord) struck the city men of Sodom with blindness? What did these men do or wanted to do so that the angels, at God's command, struck them with blindness?
And finally, what is that great sin that the men of Sodom and Gomorrah did that the Lord ordered it to be burned?
The scriptures clearly say that those who entered Lot's house where "men" not children. So
And TITL, you're wrong. The word does not mean homosexual, nor is the practice of raping slave boys homosexuality - in very much the same way that a man raping a young girl is not heterosexuality. Rape is evil.
wow....now you are not only playing around with greek but with english....GREAT!!!
maybe merriam-webster would help us here:
ho·mo·sex·u·al
adj
\ˌhō-mə-ˈsek-sh(ə-)wəl, -ˈsek-shəl\
Definition of HOMOSEXUAL
1 : of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2 : of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex
(http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homosexuality)
SEX IS SEX!!!! in rape or in other cases. homosexuality sex is also so.....despite it became a form of rape or not. to think otherwise is very worrying to me because if you can't discern between this, there is no point to talk to you about anything else..........
in an argument, if you just keep denying the facts that you yourself can't comprehend, than you will never comprehend the whole truth behind the arguemtn.
The reaction in this forum is ridiculous.
The blogger only wants to raise awareness about gay Coptic Christians around the world, and more importantly, he's REACHING OUT to gay Coptic Christians who feel persecuted by the Church. This person is trying to get gay Christians to remain Christian and remain who they are, as they identify themselves, because that does not go against Christ. There are many people who are gays and live more saintly lives than anyone of us could even begin to imagine - and yes, there were saints who were gay, but no priest or bishop wants to talk about THOSE SAINTS because it goes against what they preach. Amen, Amen, I say to you, they will get what they deserve.
It's about time gay people stop fearing Christianity, and it's about time that Christians embrace and love anyone who's gay regardless of their orientation.
Do not judge people by their orientations, just you no longer judge them by the stereotypes of skin colour. Having an orientation, which is natural to the human person, is not a sin, nor can it be changed. In this blog, the blogger is merely mentioning what it's like having the orientation, the struggles he faced dealing with the orientation in his life, the absolute failure of ex-gay therapies (which Coptic priests still blindly advocate), and his commitment to the Christian faith despite all he heard and saw from Coptic (and other Christian) people. This is something worth admiring, listening to, and engaging with in our thoughts as Christians, who are trying to improve the world and bring about social justice for all people.
You know...God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
I hope that this message finds you all well in Christ. I think that it is important that we take a step back at this time and evaluate the season in which we find ourselves. We are currently supposed to be in a time of fast, a time of self-reflection, introspection, and confronting our own shortcomings, so that we may grow in love and in faith in the Truth. Our focus is not only ourselves, but ourselves in relation to Christ, He whose Incarnation we will celebrate in just a few short weeks. He, who out of His never-ending love for mankind, "being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage; rather, He made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!" (Philippians 2:6-8). Let us even examine the words that immediately precede these well-known verses: "Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from His love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus."
My fellow children of Orthodoxy, I ask that in this time of the fast, we step away from such discussions as these. This particular discussion will not yield any beneficial fruit at the present time, in my humble opinion. Neither side is in a mindset to yield, and we only continue to propagate feelings that are, at their root, not loving, as is evidenced by several posts that are present here. These forums are in existence to elucidate that which the Orthodox Church teaches its flock to those who seek guidance and knowledge; these forums are not designed to question the validity of the Orthodox life of prayer, a questioning whose goal is to change the position of the Orthodox Church. The Church will not change, as it is not only Orthodox but also Orthopraxis. Nor is there any power in these forums to bring about such change. Additionally, these forums are frequented by a large number of youth, and this discussion is currently of no benefit to a single one of them.
The Church's head is our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, and we are to strive to be members of this Body of Christ, whose unification we find in Christ by the Holy Spirit. We are not called to be heads, directing the Body of Christ where we deem fit, but are to align ourselves with that Word of God, who guides the Church and makes us a true Church.
I, personally, do not see that either side will yield on this particular matter, and so, for the sake of preserving our love for one another, I ask that each party remove themselves from this particular topic. This is not to concede defeat, but rather, to focus on that which is Good and True, that which is appropriate at this present time, so that we may all grow in love and faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ. I cannot lock this thread, but ask that no more responses be posted concerning this topic at the present time. Even if one of the parties is to post a response beyond this, I ask that the other party restrain themselves from responding.
We are called to be loving Christians, whose faith we have received by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, through the Orthodox Church, by the writings of the Fathers, on the Holy Scripture. We all need to recognize the need that we all have to align ourselves to this True faith, and I pray that we all pray for one another in doing so. I truly mean that we should pray for one another, and ask that as you all read this, that you stop for a minute, stand from where you are reading this from, and pray for one another, that God's will be done, and that His hand guides us in the path of peace, love, and righteousness.
May God shed His light on us and strengthen our resolve in being true followers of Christ,
childoforthodoxy