Your question does not have a simple "Yes" "No" answer.
Have you read my previous posts. :D
God states that each are free to practice their religion, however if attacked, Muslims have the right to retaliate in the some manner on the battlefield. Further, it is clear that in the Quran, God mentions the "Holiness" of the Bible and Torah more tha once, however he stands firm against worshipping humans, and the Trinity.
“It may be that God will generate love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity. God is capable (of all things); God is forgiving and merciful” (60:7).
Forgiving and merciful...my answer would be "Yes" when it is interaction between people that is based primarily on mutual respect.
Thanks for your post. We have made some progress between us at least.
I see that for you, you agree that there are problems with the Saudi Curriculum. That's true. But what you are not realizing is that this curriculum is taught in ALL schools in the Middle East - including in Egypt.
However, you have not answered my SIMPLE question:
Does your God love the non muslim? YES or NO!???
That's all you have to answer. Its a simple question.
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122180#msg122180 date=1289682813] Your question does not have a simple "Yes" "No" answer.
Have you read my previous posts. :D
God states that each are free to practice their religion, however if attacked, Muslims have the right to retaliate in the some manner on the battlefield. Further, it is clear that in the Quran, God mentions the "Holiness" of the Bible and Torah more tha once, however he stands firm against worshipping humans, and the Trinity.
and by saying that, you just ignored whatever i said before commenting on this. please go and read what i said before and comment on it. you tend to just ignore things
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9966.msg122182#msg122182 date=1289683049] [quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122180#msg122180 date=1289682813] Your question does not have a simple "Yes" "No" answer.
Have you read my previous posts. :D
God states that each are free to practice their religion, however if attacked, Muslims have the right to retaliate in the some manner on the battlefield. Further, it is clear that in the Quran, God mentions the "Holiness" of the Bible and Torah more tha once, however he stands firm against worshipping humans, and the Trinity.
and by saying that, you just ignored whatever i said before commenting on this. please go and read what i said before and comment on it. you tend to just ignore things
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122184#msg122184 date=1289683790] Which post are you referring to exactly?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9966.msg122084#msg122084 date=1289584862] [quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122083#msg122083 date=1289582019] Judging from the previous verses, Christians and Jews are considered “people of the book” and who believe in a monotheistic God. However, In Islam we do not believe in the Trinity, and God states that as the downturn of Christianity and the Bible, which has been “tampered” with according to Islam. It does not mention that Christians are non-believers. Non-believers here are the pagans who continually waged war and breached treaties against Muslims.
a couple of things here: You have not commented on what i said. yes you said "Islam doesn't believe in the Trinity"....yes, I KNOW THAT!! what i am asking is that why bother with speaking about the Gospels and the Bible if the belief of God, Him who brought down the Bible, is not the same?!
Also the idea of "waging" war is just crazy.......why does it always have to be about "physical" war....and for what?! Well you gonna say that Jews fought wars.....ok. but most of those wars were for land and other physical things rather than "FAITH" or a belief of a religion.
You also mention the “Jizya” part, however, you fail to mention that EVERY Muslim also had to pay a similar amount under the notion of Zakat.
But zakat is just "alms" which Christians and Jews do in their religions (10% goes to God). Did they force other unbelievers to pay something similar?! NO....on the contrary their money was sometimes considered a curse and a disgrace to be mixed with the true alms of the believers. So saying that unbelievers must pay Gizya because the believers have to pay zakat is just nonsense......it's truly "unfair" from the general universal understanding of fairness and not within the realm of Islam.
oh wait, i forgot...... in a verse above you said that 'Esa ebn Mariam "was (no more than) a messenger of God".....that's a heresy....because even in the verse that you just took out of context: "Who is false but he who says that Jesus is not the Christ? He is the Antichrist who has no belief in the Father or the Son. (John 2:22)"
says that He is the Son.
AND ANOTHER: [quote author=minagir link=topic=9966.msg122079#msg122079 date=1289574472] [quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122078#msg122078 date=1289572664] I've been doing some research on the aboragted issue, but I have yet to reach a conclusion. However, the verse goes as follows:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar; knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?
hey..that's not the translation of the verse.... Arabic is here: 2 english that go with it (other than the english provided before): Sahih International "We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?" Muhsin Khan "Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?" http://quran.com/2
what's weird is that....the arabic is not that hard to translate: "whatever we write of verse(s) or make forget, we come with a better one or similar....don't you know that God is able to do all things.
And ANOTHER:
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9966.msg122011#msg122011 date=1289443878] MASR...that's your opinion ok.
Despite all what you said, there is one thing that i can comment on: "At around 7:00 it is stated that we as Muslims look at Mohamed as a model for us to follow. He is, to us, the greatest human to ever live. [glow=red,2,300]Most Christians feel the same about Jesus as well[/glow]. "
We, as Christians, believe in the Holy Trinity as God; God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. If a person doesn't believe in this and says he is a Christian, he is NOT. This is despite everything within Christianity and all the denominations. Any other belief against this basic one is considered a CULT......or simply not christian.
I am sorry to cut what you said, but this is very important. That's why the Qur'an cannot mix with the Bible because it simply doesn't accept this belief.....so since it, the Quran, cannot confirm this belief, there is NO REASON to bother arguing about anything else between the 2 religions/2 books.
I heard a couple of debates of Muslims and Christians (like organized respectful debates).....almost all the time, Muslims, to begin attacking Christianity, they must attack this belief first to enter into the door of the rest of the beliefs. They try to do that with bringing the status of Jesus Christ, the Son of God=God the Son, using the Bible which they do really well taking a verse or two without context.....not only that, but they also simply ignore the ones that CONFIRM that belief when Christ Himself says "I am the Son of God."
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122180#msg122180 date=1289682813] Your question does not have a simple "Yes" "No" answer.
Have you read my previous posts. :D
Yes. You stated verses where your god loves the people of the book. He loves us so much that he hates us because we don't accept his prophet? He loves us so much that we are compelled to pay jizya. Do you KNOW how much the Jizya is?? We are talking about a humiliation tax:
Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, states that the discrimination in the amount of taxation was inherited from the previous Byzantium and Iranian empires.[7][48][49] Scholars differ as to the exact burden imposed by the jizya tax. Documentary evidence, including that found in eleventh-century Cairo Geniza documents, suggest that the burden, at least for the poorer classes, was heavy. As the taxation amount was fixed in gold, it became less burdensome over the centuries.[50] According to Abu Yusuf, jurist of Harun al-Rashid, those who didn't pay jizya should be imprisoned not to be let out of custody until payment. It is not permissible to exempt one person, while obliging another to pay jizya, nor is jizya to be reduced.[51] Though it was an annual tax, non-Muslims were allowed to pay it in monthly installments.[18] If someone had agreed to pay jizya, leaving Muslim territory for non-Muslim land was punishable by enslavement if they were ever captured. This punishment did not apply if the person had suffered injustices from Muslims.[52]
God states that each are free to practice their religion, however if attacked, ....
Please MASR, stop this - "if attacked" - Who is attacking you? Let's get this straight:
In the 6th century, Amr Ibn Aas came into Egypt to conquer it, and convert it to Islam. Right? Great - now we have to pay Jizya Tax - habibi, the Jizya tax was MORE than what any person could bear. Those who were Arians in Egypt readily accepted Islam (its basically the same religion), those that were Christian suffered heavily.
You don't know whether the answer is a YES or NO -
The God of the Bible loves the muslim, despite the muslim rejecting Him--even to the last moment of his life. He does not take out the sword, nor does He ask for the sword to be used against the muslim.
Put another way: loving people want a loving God; hateful people want a hate filled god.
I don't think you will get an answer from Masr. He probably is a lawyer.
What kind of religion must Islam be for muslims to want to leave Islam for Christianity in a country like Iraq.
Oh.. by the way, there's this Coptic guy that goes to Iraq to evangelise there. I spoke to his wife a few weeks ago. He's a nice guy. Apparently the evangelical community there is growing.
I admire you guys for being able to interact with a Muslim tirelessly. Usually it's worthless going into some kind of discussion with those who believe that Islam is some kind of religion, then it ain't! Even most of the Muslims know it. But they have to defend their ego while swimming in darkness. If they were free and honest they would even believed in what their Quran tells them; they would have valued the teachings of Jesus more than Mohammed -- then even their book states that it's the living Jesus Christ who was free of seen who will be back to judge humanity in judgment day, not the sinful and dead Mo'. Well, it saddness me to continue watchfing Muslims venerating Mohammed more than their Allah, it really is a mystery to me...
It seems both of you are referring to the Jizay that non-Muslims were forced to pay in order to stay on their land. However, you fail to recognize that at the time most people who “conquered” other lands executed its original inhabitants. Let’s look at return of Christianity to Spain once again….they executed all Muslims, Jews and No believers as well. Oppression was widely evident against Non believers in Christian states as well. And today the same happens in the Jewish state of Israel.
The Jizay was the equivalent of the Zakat that Muslims paid…those who paid practiced their religion freely and garnered equal rights. They were also protected by the Muslims if attacked.
For those who don't know, the Jizya is a tax imposed on the Christians and Jews living under the protection of the Islamic state. However, it is not imposed on all Christians and Jews. It is only imposed on the men who have attained puberty. So therefore it is not imposed on the women and children. The tax is also imposed fairly and is not meant to be overburdening.
Muslims also have to pay a yearly tax called Zakat. Zakat is even binding on property, and jewellery. Zakat should also be paid in the form of food as well. The Jizya is not binding on the property of the Christians and Jews.
Christians might use Surah 9:29 to show that Muslims must fight them until they pay the Jizya, so this shows discrimination. However, this also applies to the Muslims who do not pay their Zakat! Abu Bakr fought against the Muslims who didn't pay Zakat. So how does this discriminate against the Christians and Jews?
If you believe it was a humiliation tax, then we must remember that each of us have our different interpretations to historical events. The Christians believe they were oppressed, and the Muslims and Jews believe the same.
As for MelChoir…
I did not offend nor attack any Prophet, religion or person here. So if you do not believe in “Mo” then you’re free to do so, however no need to offend a person simply because you disagree with his view. There is no room for ignorance in this discussion.
I think for discussion purposes, let's stick to the last 1 or 2 centuries. We do not have to go back to the middle ages and the Inquisition.
When Islam is backed into a corner, there is a reversion to the Crusades (1000 yrs ago), Inquisition, and other nonsense. Also, for this website we are Coptic Orthodox, we had nothing to do with the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition. There is no reason to throw up the straw argument.
The last post you made is totally irrelevant and grasping at trying to make a wounded appearance for Islam. Let us go into the Ottoman Era with the amount of blood that was shed by that system, as well as the installed Laws and Codes which are an ever present precedence for legitimized persecution.
Our God of Christianity loves you Masr even to the last point of your life.
If you made a parallel column of life experience between the Jesus Christ (whether or not you believe he is the Son of God) and the life of the Prophet it is mind-boggling to have the attempt at such a comparison. Melchior's points are well taken relative to this issue.
I think putting the Jizya and the Zakat as equivalents to fully unpalpable. If you didn't pay the Jizya--YOU DIED or were enslaved. If you don't pay the Zakat, the penalties are not the same. If that was the case there would be only a 100,000 muslims in the world.
According to the Sunna, imprisonment should be the method used if a person does not pay the Jizya.
All religions have a history of forcing conversion. However those hostile acts were carried out by humans and do not necessairly represent the religion. Further, the Ottoman Empire has a history of being tolerant towards Jews and Christians.
But what makes the Inquisition, Indulgences, Crusades, etc "nonesense", I'm sure if such acts were committed under the name of Islam you wouldn't call them nonesense. They are part of Christian history was well (Yes, I'm aware you are "Coptic").
It gives citations and quotes Islamic scholars and imams who talk about the Jizya:
here's what it says: (in summary)
Quranic Quotes Pertaining to the Jizya
Qur'an 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Khalid bin Al-Waheed (Muslim General, 632AD)
"I call you to God and to Islam. If you respond to the call, then you are Muslims: You obtain the benefits they enjoy and take up the responsibilities they bear. If you refuse, then you must pay the jizyah. If you refuse the jizyah, I will bring against you tribes of people who are more eager for death than you are for life. We will then fight you until God decides between us and you." (Al Tabari, Volume XI)
Umar ibn al-Khattab during the conquest of al-Basrah (636 CE)
Summon the people to God; those who respond to your call, accept it from them, but those who refuse must pay the poll tax out of humiliation and lowliness. If they refuse this, it is the sword without leniency. Fear God with regard to what you have been entrusted. (Al Tabari, Volume XII)
The Amount to be Paid & the Framework for Jizya:
Once a land is conquered by Islamic armies the ruler can impose a taxation on those non-Muslims who will not convert to Islam.
Jizyah is paid as a sign of submission and gives Dhimmis some legal protection in return. Under dhimmitude (the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims) Dhimmis usually are not allowed to: * carry arms to protect themselves, * serve in the army or government, * display symbols of their faith, * build or repair places of worship etc.
If the conquered do not wish to pay or convert, their fate may very well be slavery (under which, rape is permitted) or (as evidenced in the quotes above) death.
The amount of the Jizyah tax and the way it was collected varied from time to time and from place to place, but when imposed, the forced payment of Jizyah greatly stimulated the conversion of non-Muslims into Islam.
The Amount to be Paid in the Jizya:
In some cases the taxation of the non-Muslims was so profitable that the Islamic rulers prohibited their subjects from converting to Islam, lest they should lose their income.
The reference for this is here from the Encyclopedia Britannica:
Tax imposed on recent Islamic converts in the 7th–8th century. In Islamic territories, Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians who did not convert to Islam were required to pay a tax called the jizya. Many people converted to Islam to avoid this tax or to escape the ban on non-Muslims owning land. As financial problems mounted for the Umayyad rulers, authorities imposed the kharaj as a property tax for recent converts. Popular opposition to the tax led to a revolt in 747 and precipitated the downfall of the Umayyad dynasty.
Jizya & Zakat - What are the Differences?
Some will say that Muslims also had to pay a tax equivalent to the jizjah paid by Dhimmis'. It is true that Muslims, under the empire, paid a tax called zakat. However, this zakat is a 2.5% tax, while the jizyah (which can vary) is about a 10% income tax (although it has been known to be as high as 50%).[3] Muslims are obligated to pay this so-called "charity tax" even today, as its one of the five pillars of Islam. But, instead of paying it to the state, they now pay zakat to charities of their choice. It must however be noted that the majority of Islamic scholars are of the view that non-Muslims should not benefit from this alms giving,[4] which is why we find mainstream Islamic charities, like Islamic Relief, almost exclusively[5] focusing their humanitarian work in Muslim majority nations or areas in non-Muslim countries which are heavily populated by Muslim minorities. In the aftermath of the 2010 Pakistan floods, many Christian survivors were denied aid supplied by Muslim charities for this very reason.[6]
What kind of percentage would a non muslim pay in the Jizya that would push them to convert? 10%? I've read reports that this was close to nearly 60%. And as said before, the Islamic State WANTED and encouraged Coptic Christians to remain as Copts because they were the ones making the country rich with by working and paying the taxes.
Modern Day Jizya in Europe!
In Denmark, Muslims make up 5% of the population but receive 40% of social-welfare outlays. Their preachers have told them, Mr. Bawer reports, that only a fool would not take maximum advantage of the bounty that Western Europe offers and that it is perfectly legitimate to cheat and lie. The benefits they receive are a kind of jizya, the tribute that infidels in Muslim-occupied countries have to pay to preserve their lives. (The subsidized-radical situation in Britain and Germany is not much different: The four suicide bombers in London last year had raked in close to a million dollars in social benefits before going on their murderous mission.)
1. Coptic Orthodox have nothing to do with the Western Christians of the Crusades and Inquisition.
2. You have got to be kidding about the Ottomans. They have more blood on their hands than anyone in history (even Hitler and Stalin). Tell the Armenians, Syrians, Kurds, Greeks, how generous the Ottoman Turks are towards them.
If there was imprisonment for lack of payment of the Zakat, I suspect 90% of Islam would be in prison.
Regardless of how much you have murdered, raped, and conquered us, we are alive. Even sequential genocide has not removed us. Our God still loves you even until the last moment of your life.
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
MASR,
Of course it was meant to be a burden on non believers. The idea to humiliate them so that they WOULD become muslims. Your religion spread through humiliation, torture, murder and rape. Deal with it!
And by the way, your "god" only loves muslims. He hates non believers. Its a fact and many muslims have told me this. God manifests his hatred towards us by throwing us into Hellfire for not believing in Mohammad, and the muslims manifest this hatred against us by humiliating, killing, and raping us also for not believing in Muhammad.
Ok MASR, you're a bright man: HOW would YOU intrepret this verse from the Quran:
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
What does that mean to you???
What does this statement from Khalid bin Al-Waheed (Muslim General, 632AD) mean to you??
"I call you to God and to Islam. If you respond to the call, then you are Muslims: You obtain the benefits they enjoy and take up the responsibilities they bear. If you refuse, then you must pay the jizyah. If you refuse the jizyah, I will bring against you tribes of people who are more eager for death than you are for life. We will then fight you until God decides between us and you." (Al Tabari, Volume XI)
The first step to overcoming ANY problem is to admit it. You must admit that the problem is Islam! It is not a religion but an ideology. It was designed to subdue non muslims.
Also, concerning God, you say "There is no god by Allah". When we talk of a Trinity, you don't seem to understand this. You don't get how God is Triune. It doesn't sink in your heads, so you dismiss this. You reject our God because His nature is beyond your comprehension. WHO ARE YOU TO DICTATE THE NATURE OF GOD!??
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY WHAT GOD IS AND WHAT HE ISNT??? WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT MUHAMMAD IS A PROPHET??
What miracles have we seen from Islam? Let's say that your prophet is a true prophet, and your god IS a true god - what signs have we seen from him??
We, as Christians, can offer you the healing of countless of muslims who have been healed miraculously. Saint Mary appeared in Zeitun and was even televised in Egypt.
Just because a person calls themselves a Christian does not make them one. The Christian religion is properly represented by the Orthodox Church which is composed of the Coptic Orthodox, the Armenian Orthodox, the Syrian Orthodox, the Indian Orthodox, the Ethiopian Orthodox and the Eritrean Orthodox.
Secondarily it is represented by the Russian, Greek, etc Orthodox.
Only in a tertiary sense is it represented by the Catholic and Protestant Churches, many of whose teachings are not in accordance with the Christian faith.
Therefore when we say that the Inquisition, Indulgences and Crusades are nothing to do with us it is entirely true. You cannot judge the Christian faith of those Christians under oppressive Islamic regimes by the behaviour of those who use the name Christian but are not considered Christian in an organisational sense.
All of North Africa was Christian. The Christian presence was eliminated by Islam in a very short time indeed. In Egypt it remained only because the mass of the Christian population was so large. It has not been a positive influence for Christians in any place. It was Muslims who killed 1,500,000 Armenians in a few short years only a century ago. And until the Armenian Genocide Muslims were taking Armenian children as slaves every year. Were those who perpetrated the Armenian Genocide Muslims or not? We can say that the Crusades were perpetrated by non-Orthodox, by those we consider not properly Christian. But do you consider the Muslims of the Turkish regime to be Muslims or not?
In the present day if I tried to organise a prayer meeting in Saudi Arabia as an Orthodox priest I would be arrested, those worshipping with me would be beaten and imprisoned. Are the Muslims of Saudi Arabia properly Muslim or not?
160,000 Muslims in the UK believe that suicide bombing is justified and morally approved. Are these people properly Muslim or not?
Where is the oppression of Muslims as Muslims? I cannot see it taking place anywhere. Here in the UK we build mosques for Muslims while in Saudi Arabia they are entirely forbidden - even when Christians were dying to defend Saudi Arabia - and in Egypt they are torn down by Muslims. Who is killing Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq? It seems to me that it is Muslims who are bombing Muslim women and children, while British soldiers are dying trying to defend them.
Of course it is not possible to say that no Orthodox Christians have ever mistreated any Muslims as Muslims. But this has not been widespread. For the 600 years after the time of Mohammed the Eastern Empire was struggling to defend its very life. I am not aware of any invasions of Muslim areas? On the contrary the world has faced 1400 years of aggressive and expansionist Islam which is intent on religious domination by force.
Even in modern times in Europe 1,500,000 white Europeans were taken slaves by Muslims, even from countries far away from the Mediterranean such as Ireland. Where are the Middle Eastern Muslim slaves? I cannot recall any being taken? More slaves were taken from Africa by Muslims than by Europeans. And the Europeans WERE NOT CHRISTIANS, but the Muslims WERE ALL MUSLIMS.
So I find it problematic that examples are dragged out from communities that we do not consider properly Christian at all, while the millenia of devastation caused to Christian communities has been perpetrated by those who seem to have been considered entirely Muslim. Are you saying that all of the Mulsim armies invading Christian countries far from Arabia, even as far as Spain, were not Muslim but only considered themselves Muslim? This does not seem to be borne out by history. Are you saying that Saudi Arabia (the heartland of Islam) is not properly Islamic because it denies Christians the ability to worship God.
Why are Muslims around the world insisting that any Muslim who becomes a Christian must be killed if this is not the teaching of Islam? It seems that a great many people have misunderstood? Why does history show us that Muslims who became Christians WERE martyred? Even today I am sure many of us know of ex-Muslims who are in hiding after having become Christians. Why is this necessary if Islam does not require that such a convert be killed?
Yet I know Western people who have become Muslim with no thought that their lives might be in danger. I can think of no Orthodox Christian church which wishes to encourage the invasion of any other country. But there are a great many Muslims who do wish to see one worldwide Islamic state in which Christians have no place or at best a second class place.
Why are there no Christians in the Egyptian football team? Is it because there are no Christians who can play football, or because there is a routine prejudice which exists? Who is killing the Christians in Iraq because they are Christians?
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
The point is Masr is: allah in islam allows
Jizya = Stealing the money of Christians and Jews.
Prostitution = Mut'a or Misyar (what the sunnis call it) you can have sex with women or marry them for 1 day for pleasure.
Murder = killing innocent human beings just because they didn't convert to Islam such as the tribes of Kuraij.
Polygamy = You can do nokah (fornication) to four women + (Malikat Yameen) all that your right hand posseses (including slaves, servents) animals etc) which you guys call marriage (we call polygamy.
Lieing in Islam = allah allows people to be deceptive by useing Taqyea (deception) to lie to people that are you wife, family, friends and enemies. Now tell me if you can lie to your family, wife, friends and enemies who is left that you cant lie too?
It is clear that the god of Islam is not the same God of the Bible. Thats the point were trying to make to you. The sad part is Muslims believe their god is actually the God of Moses when the God of Moses forbit and condemned all these things that your god and prophet teaches.
Let alone you call your god in his 99 names -
Al Makir ( The one that decieves, or the Deciever)
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
oh you have to hear the 18 60-min tapes i have for the Late Bishop Youannis of Gharpeia speaking about the history of the Coptic Church (there is a book to but still in arabic). the one story that really pops in my head: a coptic engineering is just great at what he does. the Muslim leader of EGypt wanted to built a mosque. so as usual, the take the pillars from the churches (by destroying the churches) to built the mosques. so the engineering, with his amazing architectural skills told him i will build the mosque for you using only 2 pillars. this happens......after that the leader invites the engineer to become a muslim; the engineer refuses....the leader executes him. i'll try to remember the details and names of this.
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
If you read my post clearly, you'd see that the article I posted has given references and citations. A lot of this is taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica.
I don't understand your problem MASR - we are at the point of our discussion in establishing a baseline for dialogue: that the Islamic god does not love kafirs and this hatred is manifested in many ways. This is basic knowledge. It will be hard to move forward in this discussion with you if you are even in denial of the basic tenets of Islam.
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
I have no idea what that means.
Christians have been persecuted since the day the Church was established on the day of the Pentecost. From the Roman Empire, to the Ottoman Empire - throughout history, the Church has always been persecuted.
What bothers me is not that we were persecuted, whether we paid jizya or not, whether we were enslaved... no. That's not the problem. My problem is that you are denying your religion. You have this pre-conceived idea that your religion IS not what the Quran says it is.
You are asking me to read a book to understand Islam, but I think what would do EVERYONE a world of good is IF YOU, MASR, OPEN YOUR QURAN AND READ IT YOURSELF !!!!!
We studied the Quran, as a matter of compulsion whilst being raised in Egypt. Its compulsory.
I got to the part of "Temporary or Pleasure marriages" and I couldnt read any further. These are very vulgar words that I found offensive to my ears.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
MASR,
I know many muslims. They are good people. Really! Extremely pious actually. Sometimes we confuse what is human nature and what is Islamic teaching. You, as a human, HAVE MORE decency, you have more responsibilities and more morals than what the god in the Quran is asking of you.
You look to yourself and judge your religion. You say to yourself :"I am a nice person, and I'm muslim. All muslims I know are nice.. islam is not a bad religion because those that pray 5 times a day are good people".
I am sure they are all nice. I am sure! (I mean that). But what you are failing to understand is that you are nicer than your religion.
That's the exact opposite as how a Christian sees himself and his religion. For example. I think I'm a nice guy. But - whenever I read the Bible, I see that my religion is better than however nice I think I am. The Bible doesn't put us down, nor humiliate us, nor make us feel guilty for anything. But what it asks for us to do is beyond what any normal person can do - EVEN if they are very nice. How do we love our enemies?? How do we turn the other cheek?? How do we pray for those that hate us and LOVE them!!?? How!???????? I am a nice person, but I find this TOO nice and TOOO much love that it is EXTREMELY hard to follow and implement. But through God's Grace, many Christians have been able to aspire to such standards of love and kindness that is asked from us by our God.
But as I said, this is the exact opposite with you and your "religion":
Please MASR, do not look at yourself and see someone who is kind and lovely (as you are, I'm sure!) - but look at your religion and see what kind of person your god is asking you to be. Look and see what he's asking you to do!! Look and see how he's asking you to hate.
I'm OK with you being a muslim. I don't mind at all. But what bothers me is the false mask you cover Islam with.
As you know, we are Coptic Orthodox. There are MANY interpretations of Christianity and Christ's words. We sometimes enter into discussions with protestants, Catholics, baptists etc, and we may argue with them that for us, we need to be baptised AND have faith to be saved.
Protestants may argue with us and say that baptism is not important, and all you need to be saved is just "faith".
We can argue all day long about scripture with them; and sometimes, it can be quite exhausting.
However, when you, as a muslim, argue with those who you think have "Misinterpreted" the Quran, we are talking about the mass murder of innocent people.
How could SO many muslims "misinterpret" the Quran?? Also, with suicide bombers, they die too (along with their victims) - You cannot say that they have any "political" gains.
Protestants and Orthodox may argue with Catholics that purgatory doesn't exist. We can argue ALL day about that. But you are arguing with Shia muslims whether Temporary/Pleasure Marriages is OK in islam!???
IS THIS IS A SUBJECT FOR DEBATE BETWEEN YOU!!!!!!???? THIS IS A FILTHY SUBJECT that you are debating between you!!
What is the population of Shia muslims in the world? How many of them think that Pleasure marriages is OK?? All this is from your religion. What kind of "SPIRUTAL" debates do you have with them!??? What kind of subject is this to even debate about!?? ITS FILTHY!! Its god-endorsed prostitution!!!
DO you see my point??
Ultimately, you will find that there is nothing called a moderate muslim and a radical muslim. There's an educated zealous muslim, and an uneducated muslim.
am sure they are all nice. I am sure! (I mean that). But what you are failing to understand is that you are nicer than your religion.
That's the exact opposite as how a Christian sees himself and his religion. For example. I think I'm a nice guy. But - whenever I read the Bible, I see that my religion is better than however nice I think I am. The Bible doesn't put us down, nor humiliate us, nor make us feel guilty for anything. But what it asks for us to do is beyond what any normal person can do - EVEN if they are very nice. How do we love our enemies?? How do we turn the other cheek?? How do we pray for those that hate us and LOVE them!!?? How!?? I am a nice person, but I find this TOO nice and TOOO much love that it is EXTREMELY hard to follow and implement. But through God's Grace, many Christians have been able to aspire to such standards of love and kindness that is asked from us by our God.
But as I said, this is the exact opposite with you and your "religion":
am sure they are all nice. I am sure! (I mean that). But what you are failing to understand is that you are nicer than your religion.
That's the exact opposite as how a Christian sees himself and his religion. For example. I think I'm a nice guy. But - whenever I read the Bible, I see that my religion is better than however nice I think I am. The Bible doesn't put us down, nor humiliate us, nor make us feel guilty for anything. But what it asks for us to do is beyond what any normal person can do - EVEN if they are very nice. How do we love our enemies?? How do we turn the other cheek?? How do we pray for those that hate us and LOVE them!!?? How!?? I am a nice person, but I find this TOO nice and TOOO much love that it is EXTREMELY hard to follow and implement. But through God's Grace, many Christians have been able to aspire to such standards of love and kindness that is asked from us by our God.
But as I said, this is the exact opposite with you and your "religion":
Very very profound--Zoxsasi.
indeed.....i just hope that he would of left it at that.
I do think we need to be honest about Islam, without being rude about people, and Zoxasi seems to be trying hard to make sure that he praises Muslims while criticising Islam.
I think that his last post was very perceptive and I will use his comparison of Islam and Christianity in the future I am sure.
In my opinion the biggest threat facing the UK and the West is not secularism, it is Islam. It is relatively easy for a person to be called back from the emptiness of a life without God, but if a counterfeit religion has taken the place of God, and especially one that is willing to use violence to prevent people choosing Christ, then it is almost impossible for a nation to find its way back to God.
I hope that we can help those in the West see the truth about Islam and what is happening in Europe. Just today we have read about rather obvious violence being used against innocent Copts, but in the UK there is an insidious attempt at domination taking place. Almost all of the lamb in the UK is now offered to Allah, you know I have gone on about this in the past. But today we learn that one of the main toy manufacturers in the UK has removed the pig from the toy farm it sells in case it offends Muslims. This is happening in a great many areas in the UK. There are public libraries which will not allow a notice advertising a Christmas Carol Service in case Muslims are offended. One London borough has just seen an extremist supporting Muslim mayor elected who has removed the funding from non-Muslim and secular organisations and is funding Muslim groups. The person responsible for religious programming at the BBC is a Muslim. The person at the Foreign Office responsible for relations with Islamic groups has many links to extremist and terrorist groups. The so-called Muslim Parliament of Britain also has links to extremists and violence and has refused to condemn violence.
Unfortunately the situation is not the same as if there was political activism taking place by Methodists. A Methodist mayor would probably be more socialist than I would support, but he would be most unlikely to be working to see other Methodists taking over other positions of authority. Yet this is the aim of Muslims engaged in political activity. The UK cannot afford to be permissive of an ideology which wishes to destroy our democracy and freedoms. So it does seem necessary to be clear about the dangers of Islam, while not demonising all Muslims.
There are 160,000 Muslims in the UK who believe it is acceptable to walk into a crowded market and blow up innocent women an children. How many Christians in the UK who believe such a thing were acceptable in any circumstances? I would guess that the number would approach zero.
So we must be rather blunt.
If people start being aggressive towards all Muslims then I will moderate posts, but the fact is that the major external threat we face in Europe is Islam. Even while we also have many internal threats we must also challenge, internal to the Church as well as our Western societies of course.
But I do not want my children and grand-children growing up in an Islamic Britain, however much I might respect some of the Muslims I have met and know. Our criticism is directed towards the ideology and religion of Islam, and to those who perpetrate violence in the name of Islam, not towards all Muslims.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=9966.msg122342#msg122342 date=1289933424] I do think we need to be honest about Islam, without being rude about people, and Zoxasi seems to be trying hard to make sure that he praises Muslims while criticising Islam.
With all sincerity, I meant it. I do think muslims are genuinely good people. Who is bad anyway? I'm even sure that the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were good people. The 7/7 bombers and the madrid bombers are all "good people".
Those killing hundreds of Christians and muslims even in Iraq and Pakistan are all good people. Who sees themselves as bad?? Everyone sees themselves as good.
Did the 9/11 hijackers SEE themselves as "bad" people? No! They felt they were doing humanity a world of good.
Muslims need to see what their Quran is asking of them. Can God really want us to kill one another? FOR ANY REASON!!???
To combat terrorism, we really need to address its source, and that is the god of Islam.
Moderate muslims who distance themselves from groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Hamas etc are completely unaware of what their Quran is asking of them.
I think that his last post was very perceptive and I will use his comparison of Islam and Christianity in the future I am sure.
Thanks! lol. I'm honoured.
In my opinion the biggest threat facing the UK and the West is not secularism, it is Islam.
Coupled with aggressive atheism, this is a dangerous combination. We are talking about this issue today, and highlighting the root causes of terrorism from the Quran ONLY because we were raised in an environment where we are privy to such knowledge. We are not only Coptic Orthodox Christians who have lived in Islamic countries, but we have suffered from Islam greatly.
European, or western Atheists in general, fail to see the dangers of Islam. They do not recognize the urgency of what is becoming of their nations, and their liberties. They do not understand clearly. In fact, it is hard even having a discussion with atheists about islam as they think we are just bigots.
This is worrying. The very people you are trying to help, and those who you genuinely care about, are the ones who are unwittingly giving Islam the undue platform of recognition, esteem and importance.
I hope that we can help those in the West see the truth about Islam and what is happening in Europe.
The history of the Holy Coptic Orthodox Church is what I suggest we preach. Muslims put the blame of terrorist attacks on the US over its unqualified support for Israel. They blame the crusades for everything.
I tell you this: What they have done to subdue Coptic Christians in Egypt was happening way before the State of Israel existed. It was way before the Crusades and way before there was a military presence in Saudi Arabia.
The history of the Coptic Orthodox Church should be a testimony to the world on Islam, on the dangers of Islam, and on the "god" of Islam. Pure and simple.
Just today we have read about rather obvious violence being used against innocent Copts, but in the UK there is an insidious attempt at domination taking place. Almost all of the lamb in the UK is now offered to Allah, you know I have gone on about this in the past. But today we learn that one of the main toy manufacturers in the UK has removed the pig from the toy farm it sells in case it offends Muslims. This is happening in a great many areas in the UK. There are public libraries which will not allow a notice advertising a Christmas Carol Service in case Muslims are offended. One London borough has just seen an extremist supporting Muslim mayor elected who has removed the funding from non-Muslim and secular organisations and is funding Muslim groups. The person responsible for religious programming at the BBC is a Muslim. The person at the Foreign Office responsible for relations with Islamic groups has many links to extremist and terrorist groups. The so-called Muslim Parliament of Britain also has links to extremists and violence and has refused to condemn violence.
Muslims in France are complaining about Christians celebrating Christmas - they say it is unconstitutional.
We cannot force our respective nations to love their incumbent religions. In fact, for me, religion is very personal. But what we can do is make them realize the true face of Islam that moderate muslims are hiding.
As I said, they look to the goodness in their own human natures, and conclude that Islam is good. They do not really look at what the god of the Quran is asking them to do.
I would like to quote Mosab Hassan Youssef who says ".. anyone who reads the quran, and believes that this is the word of God, is SICK!"
He says: "we cannot blame muslims. They were born IN that culture. They are good people, but before they get offended at what is being said about their religion, they must understand the quran!".
There are 160,000 Muslims in the UK who believe it is acceptable to walk into a crowded market and blow up innocent women an children. How many Christians in the UK who believe such a thing were acceptable in any circumstances? I would guess that the number would approach zero.
You are echoing my sentiments here. If we were talking about a "misunderstanding" or "misinterpretation" of the quran, what percentage of people could be expected to mis-interpret it??
If I have 100 friends, and 1 tells me "Zoxsasi, you can be really greedy sometimes".. i may or may not believe him. If 25 or 50 people told me the same thing, I would have to look at myself and wonder WHAT AM I DOING TO GIVE 25 PEOPLE this impression???
But I do not want my children and grand-children growing up in an Islamic Britain,
I would suggest you move to France.
England is gone. When you start mocking the WWII dead and what they died for, when you burn poppies on rememberance day, and you are still allowed to live in the UK, your British Passport is not revoked, then as far as I'm concerned, England is already islamic.
When anyone British who outraged at anyone who disrespects and dishonors what is so very dear and precious to them and to their National Identity, expresses their outrage and is subsequently punished for it in the UK, England is gone.
indeed.....i just hope that he would of left it at that.
Yes, I continued to explain, in my post to MASR, the sort of "religious" debates a muslim sunni may have with muslim shia's or other sunni's.
I think this is very important Mina.
If you look at Christianity, look at the debates we have with Protestants and Catholics:
* Whether purgatory is necessary. * Affusion/Immersion in Baptism * Intercession of Saints * Procession of the Holy Spirit * Hierarchy of Hosts * Spiritual Traditions & Teachings.
All of the above are spiritual in nature. Discussing them requires a good understanding of Theology and Patristics to know how to interpret them.
Look at what muslims are debating amongst themselves:
* Breastfeeding men in order to make them feel "more at home" or to be considered as a member of your family * Pleasure marriages * Jihad - should this be personal struggle or a public one? i.e. do we kill infidels, or we control ourselves from the need to kill them?? * How many holes should be in a Burka for the woman to see. This is what is being discussed!! * How many wives can a muslim really have?
Is ANY of this "spiritual" in nature? It seems like topics school kids would be talking about near the bike shed whilst truanting from school lessons.
Muslims respond to us and say "Look at the destruction Christians have caused in the inquisition, the crusades, WWII, Hiroshima.."
But they fail to realise something: Every act of violence committed by a Christian is in complete opposition to the scripture. Every act of violence that muslims do is not only in accordance with their quran, but they even invoke the name of their god when doing it.
As I mentioned, if Islam is a religion, where is the religious/spiritual aspect of it???
God, in Islam, forbids fornication - however, he promotes it in the Islamic heaven. If something is unholy on earth, why should it be holy in heaven? Their response is that "god" rewards you for having self-control with what you were controlling yourself with.
Again, I tell them, if muslims have "misinterpreted" the Quran and have been fooled to think that by killing infidels, women breastfeeding grown men, or any other sick depraved commandment that is in the Quran, has been misinterpreted, then how could so many muslims misinterpret it??? How could so many muslims think that this is normal behaviour?
The muslims often have a problem understanding the Trinity. That we believe in a Triune God. They limit God by the limitation of their understanding. This is the exact opposite of Christianity. We don't limit God according to our understanding, but rather we accept His nature according to what has been revealed to us through the Prophets, Scripture and through Christ Himself.
Because they do not understand in a Triune nature, they reject that God is Triune. But what sort of religion decides the nature of God, and only accepts God's nature according to their mental ability to understand God's nature.
On the contrary, our God is amazing. The mystery of the Trinity, for me, is marvellous. But in islam, the Divine nature is NOT a mystery. Its as if they've taken the entire mystery, secrecy, complexity of the Ocean of Divinity, they've put it in a glass cup, and said "Here! This is our God!."
We didn't invent God. If we did invent God, we'd have made him resemble the Muslim God "allah" - IF God could be invented, that is!.
But we've simply followed what we have received, and it is undeniable that the Trinity is fascinating. It is not invented, otherwise there would be no heresies against it.
If the Church had invented who God was, then it would have made a compromise to suit all the different heresies or thoughts that suggested who they THOUGHT God was for the sake of unity. But it fervently stuck to what was revealed to the Church, the prophets and the Church fathers.
You see? Islam is not a religion brought by a true prophet. This is the point I was making.
Here's something I found interesting:
"Allah means 'God'" - Right? So, they say : "There is NO other God, but 'God'" lol. .that's HOW much they know about God. Is this "man made"? SURE! Of course its man-made. They don't even have a name for God, they know nothing about His nature, and they say the most IDIOTIC childish things:
"There is no God, but 'GOD'" - and the name of God is "GOD".
Great! Wow.. talk about divine revelation!! I bet it took someone with a good sense of humour to think that up!!
You look to yourself and judge your religion. You say to yourself :"I am a nice person, and I'm muslim. All muslims I know are nice.. islam is not a bad religion because those that pray 5 times a day are good people".
I am sure they are all nice. I am sure! (I mean that). But what you are failing to understand is that you are nicer than your religion.
That's the exact opposite as how a Christian sees himself and his religion. For example. I think I'm a nice guy. But - whenever I read the Bible, I see that my religion is better than however nice I think I am. The Bible doesn't put us down, nor humiliate us, nor make us feel guilty for anything. But what it asks for us to do is beyond what any normal person can do - EVEN if they are very nice. How do we love our enemies?? How do we turn the other cheek?? How do we pray for those that hate us and LOVE them!!?? How!?? I am a nice person, but I find this TOO nice and TOOO much love that it is EXTREMELY hard to follow and implement. But through God's Grace, many Christians have been able to aspire to such standards of love and kindness that is asked from us by our God.
So how can God ask me to turn the other cheek, to love my enemies, to forgive unconditionally IF He has not done them Himself!? Surely, He must be my example. And in the Person of Christ, HE IS my example. Christ did these things, and Christ IS my example!! But in Islam, what example do muslims have?
Mohammad communicated the names of allah to his people, of which 2 of them were "the deceiver" and the "motakaber" - the haughty.
Are these qualities anyone should learn from? Are these qualities useful for mankind OR for yourself even??
The god of Islam distanced himself from his people; The Christian God took our humanity and become like us. He took what was ours, in order to give us what is His. But this is the opposite in Islam. The Islamic god didn't give anything to anyone, yet he took from the people their humanity and their honour and extinguished it with hatred, lust and fanatism.
I think muslims have to go around screaming "In the name of allah the most merciful and compassionate" all the time because the more they say it, the more they start to believe it.
So, she is sentenced to death for insulting Islam by simply saying that "Christ died for the sins of humanity, yet what did mohammad do for anyone?".
But wait a sec.. WHAT DID Mohammad do for anyone? What?
We have offered mankind saints like mother Theresa, they have been selfless in serving Christians and muslims in India! Soeur Emmanuelle also - she gave her life to serving poor children in Egypt.
Name me ONE muslim person that has done ANYTHING for anyone - especially NON muslims??? ONE!!! Name me ONE muslim person that has helped in ANYWAY, been selfless to the point of giving their lives, to anyone NON muslim??? ONE!!
I would rather we did not start criticising other members for posting material that seems relevant to the thread.
I DO think it is necessary for people in the West to see what Islam teaches and how it treats those who are not Muslim. It seems entirely reasonable to me to criticise Islam. I would not want Muslims in general to be condemned, and I do not see that is happening on this thread. On the contrary it seems that it is being reiterated repeatedly that we do know nice Muslim people. But this does not mean that Islam is beyond criticism.
As I have said before, I do believe that Islam is the greatest threat facing Britain. And I know very many ordinary British people who agree. I think that British people need to be helped to see what the issues with Islam are. I received an invitation today from the Archbishop of Westminster to attend a service at Westminster Cathedral in commemoration of those who died recently in Iraq. Unfortunately I cannot attend. But it seems reasonable to ask who killed these innocent Christians? And why are so many innocent Christians (and even innocent Muslims) being killed daily? Under whose instruction and in the name of which god?
Just today I read that a rumour that a Greek policeman had ripped some pages out of a Koran in Greece resulted in a massive riot in which many cars and buildings were targeted for violence? Why? What did these other people have to do with the original rumour? In whose name did this destruction take place? There is a thread running through all this violence.
This is a serious issue that really needs to be addressed. It is for this reason, that I will paste a summary/source of the statistics you mentioned concerning British Muslims.
Unfortunately, the statistics you mentioned were under-estimated. I will paste the results of the YouGov survey below:
Estimating how many potential terrorists reside in one's country is a highly inexact business, but there's a striking correlation between a British government report recently leaked to London's Times and a new opinion survey commissioned by the Daily Telegraph.
Drawing on unidentified "intelligence," the government report finds as many as 16,000 "British Muslims actively engaged in terrorist activity."
Then, using standard survey research methods, the reputable YouGov polling firm interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online during July 15-22, weighing the data to reflect the British Muslim population's age, gender, and countries of origin. The survey found that 1 percent of them, or "about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence" in the effort to bring an end to "decadent and immoral" Western society.
Should their ranks really be so thick, such a huge number of potential terrorists could cause an unprecedented security crisis for Britain, with all the attendant economic, social, political, and cultural ramifications one can imagine.
The YouGov survey contains many other statistics that should interest, if not shock, Britons and other Westerners.
* Muslims who see the 7/7 bombing attacks in London as justified on balance: 6 percent. Who feel sympathy for the "feelings and motives" of those who carried out the 7/7 attacks: 24 percent.
* Understand "why some people behave in that way": 56 percent.
* Disagree with Tony Blair's description of the ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous": 26 percent.
* Feel not loyal towards Britain: 16 percent.
* Agree that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end": 32 percent willing to use non-violent means and (as noted above) 1 percent willing to use violence "if necessary." Just 56 percent of Muslims agree with the statement that "Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end."
* Agree that "British political leaders don't mean it when they talk about equality. They regard the lives of white British people as more valuable than the lives of British Muslims": 52 percent. Dismiss political party leaders as insincere when saying "they respect Islam and want to co-operate with Britain's Muslim communities": 50 percent.
* Doubt that anyone charged with and tried for the 7/7 attacks would receive a fair trial: 44 percent.
* Would not inform on a Muslim religious leader "trying to 'radicalise' young Muslims by preaching hatred against the West": 10 percent.
* Do not think people have a duty to go to the police if they "see something in the community that makes them feel suspicious": 14 percent.
* Believe other Muslims would be reluctant to go to the police "about anything they see that makes them suspicious": 41 percent.
* Would inform the police if they believed they knew about the possible planning of a terrorist attack: 73 percent. (In this case, the Daily Telegraph did not make available the negative percentage.)
* Another opinion poll, this one commissioned by Sky News and carried out by Communicate Research (which interviewed 462 UK-based Muslims by telephone) found similar results:
* Muslims who agree with what the London suicide bombers did: 2 percent.
* Who believe there is a Koranic justification for the bombings: 5 percent. Disagree with the statement that "Muslim clerics who preach violence against the West are out of touch with mainstream Muslim opinion": 46 percent.
* Think of themselves as Muslim first and British second: 46 percent. Another 42 percent do not differentiate between the identities. A mere 12 percent see themselves as British first and Muslim second.
I am at a loss at how muslims think,that Jesus had fortold the coming of the prophet muhammed in the bible? I have no idea which verse in the new testament they use to make this bold claim.
Comments
Have you read my previous posts. :D
God states that each are free to practice their religion, however if attacked, Muslims have the right to retaliate in the some manner on the battlefield. Further, it is clear that in the Quran, God mentions the "Holiness" of the Bible and Torah more tha once, however he stands firm against worshipping humans, and the Trinity.
“It may be that God will generate love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity. God is capable (of all things); God is forgiving and merciful” (60:7).
Forgiving and merciful...my answer would be "Yes" when it is interaction between people that is based primarily on mutual respect.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9966.msg122157#msg122157 date=1289674917]
MASR,
Thanks for your post. We have made some progress between us at least.
I see that for you, you agree that there are problems with the Saudi Curriculum. That's true. But what you are not realizing is that this curriculum is taught in ALL schools in the Middle East - including in Egypt.
However, you have not answered my SIMPLE question:
Does your God love the non muslim? YES or NO!???
That's all you have to answer. Its a simple question.
So, why are you avoiding answering this question?
Your question does not have a simple "Yes" "No" answer.
Have you read my previous posts. :D
God states that each are free to practice their religion, however if attacked, Muslims have the right to retaliate in the some manner on the battlefield. Further, it is clear that in the Quran, God mentions the "Holiness" of the Bible and Torah more tha once, however he stands firm against worshipping humans, and the Trinity.
and by saying that, you just ignored whatever i said before commenting on this. please go and read what i said before and comment on it. you tend to just ignore things
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122180#msg122180 date=1289682813]
Your question does not have a simple "Yes" "No" answer.
Have you read my previous posts. :D
God states that each are free to practice their religion, however if attacked, Muslims have the right to retaliate in the some manner on the battlefield. Further, it is clear that in the Quran, God mentions the "Holiness" of the Bible and Torah more tha once, however he stands firm against worshipping humans, and the Trinity.
and by saying that, you just ignored whatever i said before commenting on this. please go and read what i said before and comment on it. you tend to just ignore things
Which post are you referring to exactly?
Which post are you referring to exactly?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9966.msg122084#msg122084 date=1289584862]
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122083#msg122083 date=1289582019]
Judging from the previous verses, Christians and Jews are considered “people of the book” and who believe in a monotheistic God. However, In Islam we do not believe in the Trinity, and God states that as the downturn of Christianity and the Bible, which has been “tampered” with according to Islam. It does not mention that Christians are non-believers. Non-believers here are the pagans who continually waged war and breached treaties against Muslims.
a couple of things here:
You have not commented on what i said. yes you said "Islam doesn't believe in the Trinity"....yes, I KNOW THAT!! what i am asking is that why bother with speaking about the Gospels and the Bible if the belief of God, Him who brought down the Bible, is not the same?!
Also the idea of "waging" war is just crazy.......why does it always have to be about "physical" war....and for what?!
Well you gonna say that Jews fought wars.....ok. but most of those wars were for land and other physical things rather than "FAITH" or a belief of a religion.
But zakat is just "alms" which Christians and Jews do in their religions (10% goes to God). Did they force other unbelievers to pay something similar?! NO....on the contrary their money was sometimes considered a curse and a disgrace to be mixed with the true alms of the believers. So saying that unbelievers must pay Gizya because the believers have to pay zakat is just nonsense......it's truly "unfair" from the general universal understanding of fairness and not within the realm of Islam.
oh wait, i forgot......
in a verse above you said that 'Esa ebn Mariam "was (no more than) a messenger of God".....that's a heresy....because even in the verse that you just took out of context:
"Who is false but he who says that Jesus is not the Christ? He is the Antichrist who has no belief in the Father or the Son. (John 2:22)"
says that He is the Son.
AND ANOTHER:
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9966.msg122079#msg122079 date=1289574472]
[quote author=MASR link=topic=9966.msg122078#msg122078 date=1289572664]
I've been doing some research on the aboragted issue, but I have yet to reach a conclusion.
However, the verse goes as follows:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar; knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?
hey..that's not the translation of the verse....
Arabic is here:
2 english that go with it (other than the english provided before):
Sahih International
"We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?"
Muhsin Khan
"Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?"
http://quran.com/2
what's weird is that....the arabic is not that hard to translate:
"whatever we write of verse(s) or make forget, we come with a better one or similar....don't you know that God is able to do all things.
And ANOTHER:
[quote author=minagir link=topic=9966.msg122011#msg122011 date=1289443878]
MASR...that's your opinion ok.
Despite all what you said, there is one thing that i can comment on:
"At around 7:00 it is stated that we as Muslims look at Mohamed as a model for us to follow. He is, to us, the greatest human to ever live. [glow=red,2,300]Most Christians feel the same about Jesus as well[/glow]. "
We, as Christians, believe in the Holy Trinity as God; God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. If a person doesn't believe in this and says he is a Christian, he is NOT. This is despite everything within Christianity and all the denominations. Any other belief against this basic one is considered a CULT......or simply not christian.
I am sorry to cut what you said, but this is very important. That's why the Qur'an cannot mix with the Bible because it simply doesn't accept this belief.....so since it, the Quran, cannot confirm this belief, there is NO REASON to bother arguing about anything else between the 2 religions/2 books.
I heard a couple of debates of Muslims and Christians (like organized respectful debates).....almost all the time, Muslims, to begin attacking Christianity, they must attack this belief first to enter into the door of the rest of the beliefs. They try to do that with bringing the status of Jesus Christ, the Son of God=God the Son, using the Bible which they do really well taking a verse or two without context.....not only that, but they also simply ignore the ones that CONFIRM that belief when Christ Himself says "I am the Son of God."
Your question does not have a simple "Yes" "No" answer.
Have you read my previous posts. :D
Yes. You stated verses where your god loves the people of the book. He loves us so much that he hates us because we don't accept his prophet? He loves us so much that we are compelled to pay jizya. Do you KNOW how much the Jizya is?? We are talking about a humiliation tax:
Bernard Lewis, Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, states that the discrimination in the amount of taxation was inherited from the previous Byzantium and Iranian empires.[7][48][49] Scholars differ as to the exact burden imposed by the jizya tax. Documentary evidence, including that found in eleventh-century Cairo Geniza documents, suggest that the burden, at least for the poorer classes, was heavy. As the taxation amount was fixed in gold, it became less burdensome over the centuries.[50]
According to Abu Yusuf, jurist of Harun al-Rashid, those who didn't pay jizya should be imprisoned not to be let out of custody until payment. It is not permissible to exempt one person, while obliging another to pay jizya, nor is jizya to be reduced.[51] Though it was an annual tax, non-Muslims were allowed to pay it in monthly installments.[18]
If someone had agreed to pay jizya, leaving Muslim territory for non-Muslim land was punishable by enslavement if they were ever captured. This punishment did not apply if the person had suffered injustices from Muslims.[52]
Please MASR, stop this - "if attacked" - Who is attacking you?
Let's get this straight:
In the 6th century, Amr Ibn Aas came into Egypt to conquer it, and convert it to Islam. Right?
Great - now we have to pay Jizya Tax - habibi, the Jizya tax was MORE than what any person could bear. Those who were Arians in Egypt readily accepted Islam (its basically the same religion), those that were Christian suffered heavily.
You don't know whether the answer is a YES or NO -
Are you a lawyer?
The God of the Bible loves the muslim, despite the muslim rejecting Him--even to the last moment of his life. He does not take out the sword, nor does He ask for the sword to be used against the muslim.
Put another way: loving people want a loving God; hateful people want a hate filled god.
I don't think you will get an answer from Masr. He probably is a lawyer.
The Iraqi Muslims who convert to Christianity
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBUdRWjSxHI
What kind of religion must Islam be for muslims to want to leave Islam for Christianity in a country like Iraq.
Oh.. by the way, there's this Coptic guy that goes to Iraq to evangelise there. I spoke to his wife a few weeks ago. He's a nice guy. Apparently the evangelical community there is growing.
It seems both of you are referring to the Jizay that non-Muslims were forced to pay in order to stay on their land. However, you fail to recognize that at the time most people who “conquered” other lands executed its original inhabitants. Let’s look at return of Christianity to Spain once again….they executed all Muslims, Jews and No believers as well. Oppression was widely evident against Non believers in Christian states as well. And today the same happens in the Jewish state of Israel.
The Jizay was the equivalent of the Zakat that Muslims paid…those who paid practiced their religion freely and garnered equal rights. They were also protected by the Muslims if attacked.
If you believe it was a humiliation tax, then we must remember that each of us have our different interpretations to historical events. The Christians believe they were oppressed, and the Muslims and Jews believe the same.
As for MelChoir…
I did not offend nor attack any Prophet, religion or person here. So if you do not believe in “Mo” then you’re free to do so, however no need to offend a person simply because you disagree with his view. There is no room for ignorance in this discussion.
When Islam is backed into a corner, there is a reversion to the Crusades (1000 yrs ago), Inquisition, and other nonsense. Also, for this website we are Coptic Orthodox, we had nothing to do with the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition. There is no reason to throw up the straw argument.
The last post you made is totally irrelevant and grasping at trying to make a wounded appearance for Islam. Let us go into the Ottoman Era with the amount of blood that was shed by that system, as well as the installed Laws and Codes which are an ever present precedence for legitimized persecution.
Our God of Christianity loves you Masr even to the last point of your life.
If you made a parallel column of life experience between the Jesus Christ (whether or not you believe he is the Son of God) and the life of the Prophet it is mind-boggling to have the attempt at such a comparison. Melchior's points are well taken relative to this issue.
I think putting the Jizya and the Zakat as equivalents to fully unpalpable. If you didn't pay the Jizya--YOU DIED or were enslaved. If you don't pay the Zakat, the penalties are not the same. If that was the case there would be only a 100,000 muslims in the world.
All religions have a history of forcing conversion. However those hostile acts were carried out by humans and do not necessairly represent the religion. Further, the Ottoman Empire has a history of being tolerant towards Jews and Christians.
But what makes the Inquisition, Indulgences, Crusades, etc "nonesense", I'm sure if such acts were committed under the name of Islam you wouldn't call them nonesense. They are part of Christian history was well (Yes, I'm aware you are "Coptic").
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah
It gives citations and quotes Islamic scholars and imams who talk about the Jizya:
here's what it says: (in summary)
Quranic Quotes Pertaining to the Jizya
Qur'an 9:29 Khalid bin Al-Waheed (Muslim General, 632AD) Umar ibn al-Khattab during the conquest of al-Basrah (636 CE) The Amount to be Paid & the Framework for Jizya:
Once a land is conquered by Islamic armies the ruler can impose a taxation on those non-Muslims who will not convert to Islam.
Jizyah is paid as a sign of submission and gives Dhimmis some legal protection in return. Under dhimmitude (the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims) Dhimmis usually are not allowed to:
* carry arms to protect themselves,
* serve in the army or government,
* display symbols of their faith,
* build or repair places of worship etc.
If the conquered do not wish to pay or convert, their fate may very well be slavery (under which, rape is permitted) or (as evidenced in the quotes above) death.
The amount of the Jizyah tax and the way it was collected varied from time to time and from place to place, but when imposed, the forced payment of Jizyah greatly stimulated the conversion of non-Muslims into Islam.
The Amount to be Paid in the Jizya:
In some cases the taxation of the non-Muslims was so profitable that the Islamic rulers prohibited their subjects from converting to Islam, lest they should lose their income.
The reference for this is here from the Encyclopedia Britannica:
Tax imposed on recent Islamic converts in the 7th–8th century. In Islamic territories, Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians who did not convert to Islam were required to pay a tax called the jizya. Many people converted to Islam to avoid this tax or to escape the ban on non-Muslims owning land. As financial problems mounted for the Umayyad rulers, authorities imposed the kharaj as a property tax for recent converts. Popular opposition to the tax led to a revolt in 747 and precipitated the downfall of the Umayyad dynasty.
Jizya & Zakat - What are the Differences?
Some will say that Muslims also had to pay a tax equivalent to the jizjah paid by Dhimmis'. It is true that Muslims, under the empire, paid a tax called zakat. However, this zakat is a 2.5% tax, while the jizyah (which can vary) is about a 10% income tax (although it has been known to be as high as 50%).[3] Muslims are obligated to pay this so-called "charity tax" even today, as its one of the five pillars of Islam. But, instead of paying it to the state, they now pay zakat to charities of their choice. It must however be noted that the majority of Islamic scholars are of the view that non-Muslims should not benefit from this alms giving,[4] which is why we find mainstream Islamic charities, like Islamic Relief, almost exclusively[5] focusing their humanitarian work in Muslim majority nations or areas in non-Muslim countries which are heavily populated by Muslim minorities. In the aftermath of the 2010 Pakistan floods, many Christian survivors were denied aid supplied by Muslim charities for this very reason.[6]
What kind of percentage would a non muslim pay in the Jizya that would push them to convert? 10%? I've read reports that this was close to nearly 60%. And as said before, the Islamic State WANTED and encouraged Coptic Christians to remain as Copts because they were the ones making the country rich with by working and paying the taxes.
Modern Day Jizya in Europe!
In Denmark, Muslims make up 5% of the population but receive 40% of social-welfare outlays. Their preachers have told them, Mr. Bawer reports, that only a fool would not take maximum advantage of the bounty that Western Europe offers and that it is perfectly legitimate to cheat and lie. The benefits they receive are a kind of jizya, the tribute that infidels in Muslim-occupied countries have to pay to preserve their lives. (The subsidized-radical situation in Britain and Germany is not much different: The four suicide bombers in London last year had raked in close to a million dollars in social benefits before going on their murderous mission.)
-------------
MASR,
your religion sickens me.
1. Coptic Orthodox have nothing to do with the Western Christians of the Crusades and Inquisition.
2. You have got to be kidding about the Ottomans. They have more blood on their hands than anyone in history (even Hitler and Stalin). Tell the Armenians, Syrians, Kurds, Greeks, how generous the Ottoman Turks are towards them.
If there was imprisonment for lack of payment of the Zakat, I suspect 90% of Islam would be in prison.
Regardless of how much you have murdered, raped, and conquered us, we are alive. Even sequential genocide has not removed us. Our God still loves you even until the last moment of your life.
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
WikiIslam...
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
MASR,
Of course it was meant to be a burden on non believers. The idea to humiliate them so that they WOULD become muslims. Your religion spread through humiliation, torture, murder and rape. Deal with it!
And by the way, your "god" only loves muslims. He hates non believers. Its a fact and many muslims have told me this. God manifests his hatred towards us by throwing us into Hellfire for not believing in Mohammad, and the muslims manifest this hatred against us by humiliating, killing, and raping us also for not believing in Muhammad.
Ok MASR, you're a bright man: HOW would YOU intrepret this verse from the Quran: What does that mean to you???
What does this statement from Khalid bin Al-Waheed (Muslim General, 632AD) mean to you??
"I call you to God and to Islam. If you respond to the call, then you are Muslims: You obtain the benefits they enjoy and take up the responsibilities they bear. If you refuse, then you must pay the jizyah. If you refuse the jizyah, I will bring against you tribes of people who are more eager for death than you are for life. We will then fight you until God decides between us and you." (Al Tabari, Volume XI)
The first step to overcoming ANY problem is to admit it. You must admit that the problem is Islam! It is not a religion but an ideology. It was designed to subdue non muslims.
Also, concerning God, you say "There is no god by Allah". When we talk of a Trinity, you don't seem to understand this. You don't get how God is Triune. It doesn't sink in your heads, so you dismiss this. You reject our God because His nature is beyond your comprehension. WHO ARE YOU TO DICTATE THE NATURE OF GOD!??
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY WHAT GOD IS AND WHAT HE ISNT???
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT MUHAMMAD IS A PROPHET??
What miracles have we seen from Islam? Let's say that your prophet is a true prophet, and your god IS a true god - what signs have we seen from him??
We, as Christians, can offer you the healing of countless of muslims who have been healed miraculously.
Saint Mary appeared in Zeitun and was even televised in Egypt.
Your god is fake, and so is your prophet.
Secondarily it is represented by the Russian, Greek, etc Orthodox.
Only in a tertiary sense is it represented by the Catholic and Protestant Churches, many of whose teachings are not in accordance with the Christian faith.
Therefore when we say that the Inquisition, Indulgences and Crusades are nothing to do with us it is entirely true. You cannot judge the Christian faith of those Christians under oppressive Islamic regimes by the behaviour of those who use the name Christian but are not considered Christian in an organisational sense.
All of North Africa was Christian. The Christian presence was eliminated by Islam in a very short time indeed. In Egypt it remained only because the mass of the Christian population was so large. It has not been a positive influence for Christians in any place. It was Muslims who killed 1,500,000 Armenians in a few short years only a century ago. And until the Armenian Genocide Muslims were taking Armenian children as slaves every year. Were those who perpetrated the Armenian Genocide Muslims or not? We can say that the Crusades were perpetrated by non-Orthodox, by those we consider not properly Christian. But do you consider the Muslims of the Turkish regime to be Muslims or not?
In the present day if I tried to organise a prayer meeting in Saudi Arabia as an Orthodox priest I would be arrested, those worshipping with me would be beaten and imprisoned. Are the Muslims of Saudi Arabia properly Muslim or not?
160,000 Muslims in the UK believe that suicide bombing is justified and morally approved. Are these people properly Muslim or not?
Where is the oppression of Muslims as Muslims? I cannot see it taking place anywhere. Here in the UK we build mosques for Muslims while in Saudi Arabia they are entirely forbidden - even when Christians were dying to defend Saudi Arabia - and in Egypt they are torn down by Muslims. Who is killing Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq? It seems to me that it is Muslims who are bombing Muslim women and children, while British soldiers are dying trying to defend them.
Of course it is not possible to say that no Orthodox Christians have ever mistreated any Muslims as Muslims. But this has not been widespread. For the 600 years after the time of Mohammed the Eastern Empire was struggling to defend its very life. I am not aware of any invasions of Muslim areas? On the contrary the world has faced 1400 years of aggressive and expansionist Islam which is intent on religious domination by force.
Even in modern times in Europe 1,500,000 white Europeans were taken slaves by Muslims, even from countries far away from the Mediterranean such as Ireland. Where are the Middle Eastern Muslim slaves? I cannot recall any being taken? More slaves were taken from Africa by Muslims than by Europeans. And the Europeans WERE NOT CHRISTIANS, but the Muslims WERE ALL MUSLIMS.
So I find it problematic that examples are dragged out from communities that we do not consider properly Christian at all, while the millenia of devastation caused to Christian communities has been perpetrated by those who seem to have been considered entirely Muslim. Are you saying that all of the Mulsim armies invading Christian countries far from Arabia, even as far as Spain, were not Muslim but only considered themselves Muslim? This does not seem to be borne out by history. Are you saying that Saudi Arabia (the heartland of Islam) is not properly Islamic because it denies Christians the ability to worship God.
Why are Muslims around the world insisting that any Muslim who becomes a Christian must be killed if this is not the teaching of Islam? It seems that a great many people have misunderstood? Why does history show us that Muslims who became Christians WERE martyred? Even today I am sure many of us know of ex-Muslims who are in hiding after having become Christians. Why is this necessary if Islam does not require that such a convert be killed?
Yet I know Western people who have become Muslim with no thought that their lives might be in danger. I can think of no Orthodox Christian church which wishes to encourage the invasion of any other country. But there are a great many Muslims who do wish to see one worldwide Islamic state in which Christians have no place or at best a second class place.
Why are there no Christians in the Egyptian football team? Is it because there are no Christians who can play football, or because there is a routine prejudice which exists? Who is killing the Christians in Iraq because they are Christians?
WikiIslam...
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
The point is Masr is: allah in islam allows
Jizya = Stealing the money of Christians and Jews.
Prostitution = Mut'a or Misyar (what the sunnis call it) you can have sex with women or marry them for 1 day for pleasure.
Murder = killing innocent human beings just because they didn't convert to Islam such as the tribes of Kuraij.
Polygamy = You can do nokah (fornication) to four women + (Malikat Yameen) all that your right hand posseses (including slaves, servents) animals etc) which you guys call marriage (we call polygamy.
Lieing in Islam = allah allows people to be deceptive by useing Taqyea (deception) to lie to people that are you wife, family, friends and enemies. Now tell me if you can lie to your family, wife, friends and enemies who is left that you cant lie too?
It is clear that the god of Islam is not the same God of the Bible. Thats the point were trying to make to you. The sad part is Muslims believe their god is actually the God of Moses when the God of Moses forbit and condemned all these things that your god and prophet teaches.
Let alone you call your god in his 99 names -
Al Makir ( The one that decieves, or the Deciever)
Al Motakabir - The one full of Pride
For us these names are for Satan himself.
WikiIslam...
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
Eitherway, I think the idea of paying Jizya at the time was years ahead of the intolerant tendencies that spread around the world and Europe.
It might sicken you, but history dictates worse acts during that time. Much worse. The Jizya (I don't know were they got 50% from) was not supposed to be burden on "non believers".
oh you have to hear the 18 60-min tapes i have for the Late Bishop Youannis of Gharpeia speaking about the history of the Coptic Church (there is a book to but still in arabic). the one story that really pops in my head:
a coptic engineering is just great at what he does. the Muslim leader of EGypt wanted to built a mosque. so as usual, the take the pillars from the churches (by destroying the churches) to built the mosques. so the engineering, with his amazing architectural skills told him i will build the mosque for you using only 2 pillars. this happens......after that the leader invites the engineer to become a muslim; the engineer refuses....the leader executes him. i'll try to remember the details and names of this.
WikiIslam...
Oh what a great source! How about open a book, and understand the religion instead of reading "WikiIslam"?
If you read my post clearly, you'd see that the article I posted has given references and citations. A lot of this is taken from the Encyclopedia Britannica.
I don't understand your problem MASR - we are at the point of our discussion in establishing a baseline for dialogue: that the Islamic god does not love kafirs and this hatred is manifested in many ways. This is basic knowledge.
It will be hard to move forward in this discussion with you if you are even in denial of the basic tenets of Islam. I have no idea what that means.
Christians have been persecuted since the day the Church was established on the day of the Pentecost. From the Roman Empire, to the Ottoman Empire - throughout history, the Church has always been persecuted.
What bothers me is not that we were persecuted, whether we paid jizya or not, whether we were enslaved... no. That's not the problem. My problem is that you are denying your religion. You have this pre-conceived idea that your religion IS not what the Quran says it is.
You are asking me to read a book to understand Islam, but I think what would do EVERYONE a world of good is IF YOU, MASR, OPEN YOUR QURAN AND READ IT YOURSELF !!!!!
We studied the Quran, as a matter of compulsion whilst being raised in Egypt. Its compulsory.
I got to the part of "Temporary or Pleasure marriages" and I couldnt read any further. These are very vulgar words that I found offensive to my ears. MASR,
I know many muslims. They are good people. Really! Extremely pious actually.
Sometimes we confuse what is human nature and what is Islamic teaching. You, as a human, HAVE MORE decency, you have more responsibilities and more morals than what the god in the Quran is asking of you.
You look to yourself and judge your religion. You say to yourself :"I am a nice person, and I'm muslim. All muslims I know are nice.. islam is not a bad religion because those that pray 5 times a day are good people".
I am sure they are all nice. I am sure! (I mean that). But what you are failing to understand is that you are nicer than your religion.
That's the exact opposite as how a Christian sees himself and his religion. For example. I think I'm a nice guy. But - whenever I read the Bible, I see that my religion is better than however nice I think I am. The Bible doesn't put us down, nor humiliate us, nor make us feel guilty for anything. But what it asks for us to do is beyond what any normal person can do - EVEN if they are very nice. How do we love our enemies?? How do we turn the other cheek?? How do we pray for those that hate us and LOVE them!!?? How!???????? I am a nice person, but I find this TOO nice and TOOO much love that it is EXTREMELY hard to follow and implement. But through God's Grace, many Christians have been able to aspire to such standards of love and kindness that is asked from us by our God.
But as I said, this is the exact opposite with you and your "religion":
Please MASR, do not look at yourself and see someone who is kind and lovely (as you are, I'm sure!) - but look at your religion and see what kind of person your god is asking you to be. Look and see what he's asking you to do!! Look and see how he's asking you to hate.
I'm OK with you being a muslim. I don't mind at all. But what bothers me is the false mask you cover Islam with.
As you know, we are Coptic Orthodox. There are MANY interpretations of Christianity and Christ's words. We sometimes enter into discussions with protestants, Catholics, baptists etc, and we may argue with them that for us, we need to be baptised AND have faith to be saved.
Protestants may argue with us and say that baptism is not important, and all you need to be saved is just "faith".
We can argue all day long about scripture with them; and sometimes, it can be quite exhausting.
However, when you, as a muslim, argue with those who you think have "Misinterpreted" the Quran, we are talking about the mass murder of innocent people.
How could SO many muslims "misinterpret" the Quran?? Also, with suicide bombers, they die too (along with their victims) - You cannot say that they have any "political" gains.
Protestants and Orthodox may argue with Catholics that purgatory doesn't exist. We can argue ALL day about that. But you are arguing with Shia muslims whether Temporary/Pleasure Marriages is OK in islam!???
IS THIS IS A SUBJECT FOR DEBATE BETWEEN YOU!!!!!!???? THIS IS A FILTHY SUBJECT that you are debating between you!!
What is the population of Shia muslims in the world? How many of them think that Pleasure marriages is OK?? All this is from your religion. What kind of "SPIRUTAL" debates do you have with them!??? What kind of subject is this to even debate about!?? ITS FILTHY!! Its god-endorsed prostitution!!!
DO you see my point??
Ultimately, you will find that there is nothing called a moderate muslim and a radical muslim. There's an educated zealous muslim, and an uneducated muslim.
indeed.....i just hope that he would of left it at that.
I think that his last post was very perceptive and I will use his comparison of Islam and Christianity in the future I am sure.
In my opinion the biggest threat facing the UK and the West is not secularism, it is Islam. It is relatively easy for a person to be called back from the emptiness of a life without God, but if a counterfeit religion has taken the place of God, and especially one that is willing to use violence to prevent people choosing Christ, then it is almost impossible for a nation to find its way back to God.
I hope that we can help those in the West see the truth about Islam and what is happening in Europe. Just today we have read about rather obvious violence being used against innocent Copts, but in the UK there is an insidious attempt at domination taking place. Almost all of the lamb in the UK is now offered to Allah, you know I have gone on about this in the past. But today we learn that one of the main toy manufacturers in the UK has removed the pig from the toy farm it sells in case it offends Muslims. This is happening in a great many areas in the UK. There are public libraries which will not allow a notice advertising a Christmas Carol Service in case Muslims are offended. One London borough has just seen an extremist supporting Muslim mayor elected who has removed the funding from non-Muslim and secular organisations and is funding Muslim groups. The person responsible for religious programming at the BBC is a Muslim. The person at the Foreign Office responsible for relations with Islamic groups has many links to extremist and terrorist groups. The so-called Muslim Parliament of Britain also has links to extremists and violence and has refused to condemn violence.
Unfortunately the situation is not the same as if there was political activism taking place by Methodists. A Methodist mayor would probably be more socialist than I would support, but he would be most unlikely to be working to see other Methodists taking over other positions of authority. Yet this is the aim of Muslims engaged in political activity. The UK cannot afford to be permissive of an ideology which wishes to destroy our democracy and freedoms. So it does seem necessary to be clear about the dangers of Islam, while not demonising all Muslims.
There are 160,000 Muslims in the UK who believe it is acceptable to walk into a crowded market and blow up innocent women an children. How many Christians in the UK who believe such a thing were acceptable in any circumstances? I would guess that the number would approach zero.
So we must be rather blunt.
If people start being aggressive towards all Muslims then I will moderate posts, but the fact is that the major external threat we face in Europe is Islam. Even while we also have many internal threats we must also challenge, internal to the Church as well as our Western societies of course.
But I do not want my children and grand-children growing up in an Islamic Britain, however much I might respect some of the Muslims I have met and know. Our criticism is directed towards the ideology and religion of Islam, and to those who perpetrate violence in the name of Islam, not towards all Muslims.
I do think we need to be honest about Islam, without being rude about people, and Zoxasi seems to be trying hard to make sure that he praises Muslims while criticising Islam.
With all sincerity, I meant it. I do think muslims are genuinely good people.
Who is bad anyway? I'm even sure that the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were good people. The 7/7 bombers and the madrid bombers are all "good people".
Those killing hundreds of Christians and muslims even in Iraq and Pakistan are all good people. Who sees themselves as bad?? Everyone sees themselves as good.
Did the 9/11 hijackers SEE themselves as "bad" people? No! They felt they were doing humanity a world of good.
Muslims need to see what their Quran is asking of them. Can God really want us to kill one another? FOR ANY REASON!!???
To combat terrorism, we really need to address its source, and that is the god of Islam.
Moderate muslims who distance themselves from groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Hamas etc are completely unaware of what their Quran is asking of them.
Thanks! lol. I'm honoured. Coupled with aggressive atheism, this is a dangerous combination. We are talking about this issue today, and highlighting the root causes of terrorism from the Quran ONLY because we were raised in an environment where we are privy to such knowledge. We are not only Coptic Orthodox Christians who have lived in Islamic countries, but we have suffered from Islam greatly.
European, or western Atheists in general, fail to see the dangers of Islam. They do not recognize the urgency of what is becoming of their nations, and their liberties. They do not understand clearly. In fact, it is hard even having a discussion with atheists about islam as they think we are just bigots.
This is worrying. The very people you are trying to help, and those who you genuinely care about, are the ones who are unwittingly giving Islam the undue platform of recognition, esteem and importance. The history of the Holy Coptic Orthodox Church is what I suggest we preach. Muslims put the blame of terrorist attacks on the US over its unqualified support for Israel. They blame the crusades for everything.
I tell you this: What they have done to subdue Coptic Christians in Egypt was happening way before the State of Israel existed. It was way before the Crusades and way before there was a military presence in Saudi Arabia.
The history of the Coptic Orthodox Church should be a testimony to the world on Islam, on the dangers of Islam, and on the "god" of Islam. Pure and simple. Muslims in France are complaining about Christians celebrating Christmas - they say it is unconstitutional.
We cannot force our respective nations to love their incumbent religions. In fact, for me, religion is very personal. But what we can do is make them realize the true face of Islam that moderate muslims are hiding.
As I said, they look to the goodness in their own human natures, and conclude that Islam is good. They do not really look at what the god of the Quran is asking them to do.
I would like to quote Mosab Hassan Youssef who says ".. anyone who reads the quran, and believes that this is the word of God, is SICK!"
He says: "we cannot blame muslims. They were born IN that culture. They are good people, but before they get offended at what is being said about their religion, they must understand the quran!". You are echoing my sentiments here. If we were talking about a "misunderstanding" or "misinterpretation" of the quran, what percentage of people could be expected to mis-interpret it??
If I have 100 friends, and 1 tells me "Zoxsasi, you can be really greedy sometimes".. i may or may not believe him. If 25 or 50 people told me the same thing, I would have to look at myself and wonder WHAT AM I DOING TO GIVE 25 PEOPLE this impression??? I would suggest you move to France.
England is gone. When you start mocking the WWII dead and what they died for, when you burn poppies on rememberance day, and you are still allowed to live in the UK, your British Passport is not revoked, then as far as I'm concerned, England is already islamic.
When anyone British who outraged at anyone who disrespects and dishonors what is so very dear and precious to them and to their National Identity, expresses their outrage and is subsequently punished for it in the UK, England is gone.
Its dead.
indeed.....i just hope that he would of left it at that.
Yes, I continued to explain, in my post to MASR, the sort of "religious" debates a muslim sunni may have with muslim shia's or other sunni's.
I think this is very important Mina.
If you look at Christianity, look at the debates we have with Protestants and Catholics:
* Whether purgatory is necessary.
* Affusion/Immersion in Baptism
* Intercession of Saints
* Procession of the Holy Spirit
* Hierarchy of Hosts
* Spiritual Traditions & Teachings.
All of the above are spiritual in nature. Discussing them requires a good understanding of Theology and Patristics to know how to interpret them.
Look at what muslims are debating amongst themselves:
* Breastfeeding men in order to make them feel "more at home" or to be considered as a member of your family
* Pleasure marriages
* Jihad - should this be personal struggle or a public one? i.e. do we kill infidels, or we control ourselves from the need to kill them??
* How many holes should be in a Burka for the woman to see. This is what is being discussed!!
* How many wives can a muslim really have?
Is ANY of this "spiritual" in nature? It seems like topics school kids would be talking about near the bike shed whilst truanting from school lessons.
Muslims respond to us and say "Look at the destruction Christians have caused in the inquisition, the crusades, WWII, Hiroshima.."
But they fail to realise something: Every act of violence committed by a Christian is in complete opposition to the scripture.
Every act of violence that muslims do is not only in accordance with their quran, but they even invoke the name of their god when doing it.
As I mentioned, if Islam is a religion, where is the religious/spiritual aspect of it???
God, in Islam, forbids fornication - however, he promotes it in the Islamic heaven. If something is unholy on earth, why should it be holy in heaven? Their response is that "god" rewards you for having self-control with what you were controlling yourself with.
Again, I tell them, if muslims have "misinterpreted" the Quran and have been fooled to think that by killing infidels, women breastfeeding grown men, or any other sick depraved commandment that is in the Quran, has been misinterpreted, then how could so many muslims misinterpret it??? How could so many muslims think that this is normal behaviour?
The muslims often have a problem understanding the Trinity. That we believe in a Triune God. They limit God by the limitation of their understanding. This is the exact opposite of Christianity. We don't limit God according to our understanding, but rather we accept His nature according to what has been revealed to us through the Prophets, Scripture and through Christ Himself.
Because they do not understand in a Triune nature, they reject that God is Triune. But what sort of religion decides the nature of God, and only accepts God's nature according to their mental ability to understand God's nature.
On the contrary, our God is amazing. The mystery of the Trinity, for me, is marvellous. But in islam, the Divine nature is NOT a mystery. Its as if they've taken the entire mystery, secrecy, complexity of the Ocean of Divinity, they've put it in a glass cup, and said "Here! This is our God!."
We didn't invent God. If we did invent God, we'd have made him resemble the Muslim God "allah" - IF God could be invented, that is!.
But we've simply followed what we have received, and it is undeniable that the Trinity is fascinating. It is not invented, otherwise there would be no heresies against it.
If the Church had invented who God was, then it would have made a compromise to suit all the different heresies or thoughts that suggested who they THOUGHT God was for the sake of unity. But it fervently stuck to what was revealed to the Church, the prophets and the Church fathers.
You see? Islam is not a religion brought by a true prophet. This is the point I was making.
Here's something I found interesting:
"Allah means 'God'" - Right?
So, they say : "There is NO other God, but 'God'"
lol. .that's HOW much they know about God. Is this "man made"? SURE! Of course its man-made. They don't even have a name for God, they know nothing about His nature, and they say the most IDIOTIC childish things:
"There is no God, but 'GOD'" - and the name of God is "GOD".
Great! Wow.. talk about divine revelation!! I bet it took someone with a good sense of humour to think that up!! So how can God ask me to turn the other cheek, to love my enemies, to forgive unconditionally IF He has not done them Himself!? Surely, He must be my example. And in the Person of Christ, HE IS my example. Christ did these things, and Christ IS my example!! But in Islam, what example do muslims have?
Mohammad communicated the names of allah to his people, of which 2 of them were "the deceiver" and the "motakaber" - the haughty.
Are these qualities anyone should learn from? Are these qualities useful for mankind OR for yourself even??
The god of Islam distanced himself from his people; The Christian God took our humanity and become like us. He took what was ours, in order to give us what is His. But this is the opposite in Islam. The Islamic god didn't give anything to anyone, yet he took from the people their humanity and their honour and extinguished it with hatred, lust and fanatism.
I think muslims have to go around screaming "In the name of allah the most merciful and compassionate" all the time because the more they say it, the more they start to believe it.
Do you see ANY compassion in this story?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8120142/Christian-woman-sentenced-to-death-in-Pakistan-for-blasphemy.html
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Your-signature-to-save-Asia-Bibi-and-Pakistan-19997.html
So, she is sentenced to death for insulting Islam by simply saying that "Christ died for the sins of humanity, yet what did mohammad do for anyone?".
But wait a sec.. WHAT DID Mohammad do for anyone? What?
We have offered mankind saints like mother Theresa, they have been selfless in serving Christians and muslims in India! Soeur Emmanuelle also - she gave her life to serving poor children in Egypt.
Name me ONE muslim person that has done ANYTHING for anyone - especially NON muslims??? ONE!!!
Name me ONE muslim person that has helped in ANYWAY, been selfless to the point of giving their lives, to anyone NON muslim??? ONE!!
I DO think it is necessary for people in the West to see what Islam teaches and how it treats those who are not Muslim. It seems entirely reasonable to me to criticise Islam. I would not want Muslims in general to be condemned, and I do not see that is happening on this thread. On the contrary it seems that it is being reiterated repeatedly that we do know nice Muslim people. But this does not mean that Islam is beyond criticism.
As I have said before, I do believe that Islam is the greatest threat facing Britain. And I know very many ordinary British people who agree. I think that British people need to be helped to see what the issues with Islam are. I received an invitation today from the Archbishop of Westminster to attend a service at Westminster Cathedral in commemoration of those who died recently in Iraq. Unfortunately I cannot attend. But it seems reasonable to ask who killed these innocent Christians? And why are so many innocent Christians (and even innocent Muslims) being killed daily? Under whose instruction and in the name of which god?
Just today I read that a rumour that a Greek policeman had ripped some pages out of a Koran in Greece resulted in a massive riot in which many cars and buildings were targeted for violence? Why? What did these other people have to do with the original rumour? In whose name did this destruction take place? There is a thread running through all this violence.
This is a serious issue that really needs to be addressed. It is for this reason, that I will paste a summary/source of the statistics you mentioned concerning British Muslims.
Unfortunately, the statistics you mentioned were under-estimated. I will paste the results of the YouGov survey below:
Estimating how many potential terrorists reside in one's country is a highly inexact business, but there's a striking correlation between a British government report recently leaked to London's Times and a new opinion survey commissioned by the Daily Telegraph.
Drawing on unidentified "intelligence," the government report finds as many as 16,000 "British Muslims actively engaged in terrorist activity."
Then, using standard survey research methods, the reputable YouGov polling firm interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online during July 15-22, weighing the data to reflect the British Muslim population's age, gender, and countries of origin. The survey found that 1 percent of them, or "about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence" in the effort to bring an end to "decadent and immoral" Western society.
Should their ranks really be so thick, such a huge number of potential terrorists could cause an unprecedented security crisis for Britain, with all the attendant economic, social, political, and cultural ramifications one can imagine.
The YouGov survey contains many other statistics that should interest, if not shock, Britons and other Westerners.
* Muslims who see the 7/7 bombing attacks in London as justified on balance: 6 percent.
Who feel sympathy for the "feelings and motives" of those who carried out the 7/7 attacks: 24 percent.
* Understand "why some people behave in that way": 56 percent.
* Disagree with Tony Blair's description of the ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous": 26 percent.
* Feel not loyal towards Britain: 16 percent.
* Agree that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end": 32 percent willing to use non-violent means and (as noted above) 1 percent willing to use violence "if necessary." Just 56 percent of Muslims agree with the statement that "Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end."
* Agree that "British political leaders don't mean it when they talk about equality. They regard the lives of white British people as more valuable than the lives of British Muslims": 52 percent.
Dismiss political party leaders as insincere when saying "they respect Islam and want to co-operate with Britain's Muslim communities": 50 percent.
* Doubt that anyone charged with and tried for the 7/7 attacks would receive a fair trial: 44 percent.
* Would not inform on a Muslim religious leader "trying to 'radicalise' young Muslims by preaching hatred against the West": 10 percent.
* Do not think people have a duty to go to the police if they "see something in the community that makes them feel suspicious": 14 percent.
* Believe other Muslims would be reluctant to go to the police "about anything they see that makes them suspicious": 41 percent.
* Would inform the police if they believed they knew about the possible planning of a terrorist attack: 73 percent. (In this case, the Daily Telegraph did not make available the negative percentage.)
* Another opinion poll, this one commissioned by Sky News and carried out by Communicate Research (which interviewed 462 UK-based Muslims by telephone) found similar results:
* Muslims who agree with what the London suicide bombers did: 2 percent.
* Who believe there is a Koranic justification for the bombings: 5 percent.
Disagree with the statement that "Muslim clerics who preach violence against the West are out of touch with mainstream Muslim opinion": 46 percent.
* Think of themselves as Muslim first and British second: 46 percent. Another 42 percent do not differentiate between the identities. A mere 12 percent see themselves as British first and Muslim second.
I am at a loss at how muslims think,that Jesus had fortold the coming of the prophet muhammed in the bible? I have no idea which verse in the new testament they use to make this bold claim.