Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
I have a girl question
Yeh well y are females not allowed to have Holy Communion when they have monthly (period)???????? thankz
Comments
they are considered "defiled"...that is what i was told.
women are not defiled spiritually by a normal bodily occurance.
but taking communion while bleeding is not allowed coz it's like taking the Holy Body and Blood and it then coming out of you.
there is more information on this topic here:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=9266.0
and here:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=8278.0
btw, men are not supposed to take communion on the day following an emmision of sperm (at least that's what i've picked up from reading forum discussions, this one i haven't learnt from a good source eg. a priest or a book, so i could be wrong here.)
really don't know, but watching this space...
:)
i disagree (and i have read up on this a lot!)
women are not defiled spiritually by a normal bodily occurance.
but taking communion while bleeding is not allowed coz it's like taking the Holy Body and Blood and it then coming out of you.
there is more information on this topic here:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=9266.0
and here:
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?topic=8278.0
btw, men are not supposed to take communion on the day following an emmision of sperm (at least that's what i've picked up from reading forum discussions, this one i haven't learnt from a good source eg. a priest or a book, so i could be wrong here.)
you sound right...i am just giving the answer they told us when we were little :). and i never heard about the man thing.
Yes, men are not supposed to either.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/menses.aspx
Forgive my weakness, but I don't see how the link you posted supports your point.
I think the reason women should not take communion during their periods is because of the bleeding as some have already mentioned. This is the same for someone who has some disease that causes him to cough out blood.
As for the men, I have never heard what has been said here before. Also, when are we ever 'worthy' with our own strength if it hadn't been for the grace of God. It is true that you should be prepared; but, I don't think that these bodily emissions should hinder you from taking communion.
but taking communion while bleeding is not allowed coz it's like taking the Holy Body and Blood and it then coming out of you.
Are you actually serious about this?
I hope Fr Peter can comment on it, whether this is our teaching, and if not, where did it originate from.
Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, section V Emphasis mine
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9640.msg118671#msg118671 date=1282923356]
but taking communion while bleeding is not allowed coz it's like taking the Holy Body and Blood and it then coming out of you.
Are you actually serious about this?
in regards to that comment, I have often learned that the body and blood of Christ becomes one with our Spirit and strengthens it. In other words the body and blood don't mix with the flesh (as the quote you had included said) thus the reason why many priests for example allow swimming after communion if the person ate a meal after. For the monthly cycle of women, (from what I know, women are only prevented from the Eucharist in the Coptic church... possibly from some sort of influence??) I have not really found a solid reason to why women are prevented from taking communion, the closest thing I have learned is that it is a constant reminder for us about the fall of Eve and of course the old testament references to uncleanliness and such- but that is not very convincing for me. I dont know the validity of what I have said, it is just things I have heard/ read over time. Thanks in advance.
-Please correct me for my benefit and the benefit of others.
please pray for me
i went paddling in the sea (not swimming) after communion with some kids from a big city far from the sea, i wanted to enjoy the sea-side with them.
but when we came back, we got into a bit of trouble!
we did eat something first, though.
where should we look to find out what is just culture and what is orthodox teaching?
like i know i may understand things wrong, coz i, like u all, have learnt some things from orthodox friends and priests and some things from reading.
hos Erof, can u post yr source?
btw the link from Godlovesme is from the greek orthodox church, so we may believe a little differently.
Father Peter
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=9640.msg118684#msg118684 date=1282952731]
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9640.msg118671#msg118671 date=1282923356]
but taking communion while bleeding is not allowed coz it's like taking the Holy Body and Blood and it then coming out of you.
Are you actually serious about this?
yeah...im pretty sure that blood is the blood that accumulated over the month and is being shed.... if anything if that were the reason, it would make more sense to NOT take communion when it's NOT that time of the month....if you were to take communion during that time, the blood that you would go into your system and not in the collection that was alreadfy formed during the month and is being bled...soo..idk...
[quote author=Chief_of_Sinners link=topic=9640.msg118690#msg118690 date=1282984895]
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=9640.msg118684#msg118684 date=1282952731]
[quote author=mabsoota link=topic=9640.msg118671#msg118671 date=1282923356]
but taking communion while bleeding is not allowed coz it's like taking the Holy Body and Blood and it then coming out of you.
Are you actually serious about this?
yeah...im pretty sure that blood is the blood that accumulated over the month and is being shed.... if anything if that were the reason, it would make more sense to NOT take communion when it's NOT that time of the month....if you were to take communion during that time, the blood that you would go into your system and not in the collection that was alreadfy formed during the month and is being bled...soo..idk...
my biology days are long over but I'm pretty sure the menstrual cycle isn't the result of a reservoir that keeps filling with blood the whole month until it is finally emptied over a couple of days but rather the result of hormonal activity caused by the lack of fertilization of an egg leading to cramping of mussles in uterus and secretion of blood and dead uterial tissue (but I'm sure there are more than enough coptic doctors who could enlighten us more on the subject)
I'm still waiting for Fr. Peter's response, but in my limited knowledge and experience I would guess that the practice of women not taking communion during menstruation is more a cultural thing maybe under influence of jewish and islamic practices..
I always found the reasoning of the Holy Blood going into our blood stream and then going to waste druing the period most unconvincing, since where then does the Holy Body go under that way of thinking?
Here's the link:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.ix.vii.v.html
Father Peter
about biology, the bleeding doesn't start till the day of the period.
until then, for 2 weeks, the lining of the uterus becomes gradually thicker so it is ready for the egg to implant in it. (i.e the egg is released about 2 weeks before the period, and if it is not fertilised in a few days (pregnancy), it passes out unnoticed with a little discharge.) so if no fertilised egg (that is, a tiny baby) implants in the uterus, the lining of the uterus stays thick until the time of the period. then some hormone levels drop (it can make women feel a little stressed at this time) and the extra-thick lining of the uterus (womb) separates off with some bleeding.
period pain is because the uterus is contracting to get rid of the thick lining and the cells of the lining die as they separate off.
it feels like constipation pain, so men can sympathise with women if they know this!
Question
Is it allowed for a woman while menstruating to receive
Communion, and if not, why not? Because after all, this is
something natural which she can't help.
And if she just sits down at home, is she allowed to worship
privately, to pray and read the Bible etc.?
Answer:
At home she can worship God however she likes at this time of
the month, but if she takes Communion in church, or outside it,
this is absolutely not allowed.
A person is not permitted to receive Communion if blood is
flowing from his body, and this applies to both sexes, and it
also applies to any secretion of a sexual nature: this is clear
from the Bible.
There are many Biblical texts and many Church regulations
which confirm this point and have made it clear for people to
understand.
But someone might plead that it isn't fair on women, since
nothing comparable applies to men. For when men have wet
dreams or if any discharge comes from their bodies, they can
still enter Church and no-one is likely to prevent them, and no
rules can be enforced against them. So why should this happen
to women?
Perhaps someone might ask that there are some men who aren't
deacons but who nevertheless enter the sanctuary and take
Communion. How is that so?
In actual fact, this was only ever permitted to the king who had
been crowned in the Orthodox manner, and had been anointed
with the holy oil in view of the fact that he was the Lord's
anointed.
As for other people entering, perhaps they have another reason
for doing so which could be one of the following:
Many of the men who do this have actually been admitted to
one of the lower degrees of deacon, but might not be wearing
their proper deacon's dress at the time that they enter the
sanctuary, as they should, and this is a mistake which the
Church is trying to remedy, by forbidding all deacons from
entering the sanctuary, even those decreed to be at one of the
lower levels, but who don't happen to be serving or wearing
their tunics on that day.
But there is also another mistake which I have observed which
has been necessitated really by a professional situation which is
that some men, such as builders, engineers or decorators might
need to enter the sanctuary during the course of their work, but
this obviously wouldn't be during a service. In a similar way, it
might be necessary at times for painters, television or radio men
to enter the sanctuary.
The answer is that the most the man is permitted to do is to
enter the church after having cleansed himself bodily, but he is
not allowed to receive Communion.
There is a basic difference though between the kind of discharge
coming from the man and the woman, which is that: the man's is
incidental and temporary, whereas the woman's continues for
several days. The following point, however, would make them
both equal and that is if the man's discharge were continuous, he
would also be forbidden to take the communion in exactly the
same way.
But there remains the point that it is not the woman's fault, that
it is something natural which she can't help.
No, it's nobody's fault: there is nothing wrong in it, and noone
is being blamed but God just wants to always remind
us of the first sin of mankind.
If we are mindful of that first sin, we are more likely to value
the ransom paid out for us.
The wages of sin is death, and even though Christ died for us,
He still left us with a mark to remember this by, which is for
men, that "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food"
and for women, that "with pain you will give birth to children.
" (Gen. 3:19,18)
In the case of pregnancy, the woman's menstruation stops, and
she is reminded of Eve's original sin by the pains of pregnancy,
birth and delivery, and outside the period of pregnancy she
recalls her sin at the time of menstruation and this makes her
realise how much her sins forbid her from receiving holy
blessings, not only those which are associated with Communion
and the Church.
Men, on the other hand, are reminded of their first sin because
they are supposed to labour throughout their lives on account of
earning their daily bread. The remembrance of this is the aim,
though the means might vary enormously.
It would be better for us to try and derive spiritual benefit from
thinking more deeply about the meaning of these things rather
than complaining about them.
How often is that rule followed, it seems unknown to many and not taught but in regards to women its alwayssss emphasized, is there also a reason for that?? However, aside from that doesnt a normal male have 10-12 erections each night thus always having discharge?? .... if thats true they would never be allowed to take communion. I love the Pope and everything he has to say and he made a good point. However, I am not convinced, I still dont understand the reasoning of being forbidden from Communion.
please pray for me.
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any man has a bodily discharge, the discharge is unclean. 3 Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean. This is how his discharge will bring about uncleanness:
4 " 'Any bed the man with a discharge lies on will be unclean, and anything he sits on will be unclean. 5 Anyone who touches his bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 6 Whoever sits on anything that the man with a discharge sat on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
7 " 'Whoever touches the man who has a discharge must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
8 " 'If the man with the discharge spits on someone who is clean, that person must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
9 " 'Everything the man sits on when riding will be unclean, 10 and whoever touches any of the things that were under him will be unclean till evening; whoever picks up those things must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
11 " 'Anyone the man with a discharge touches without rinsing his hands with water must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
12 " 'A clay pot that the man touches must be broken, and any wooden article is to be rinsed with water.
13 " 'When a man is cleansed from his discharge, he is to count off seven days for his ceremonial cleansing; he must wash his clothes and bathe himself with fresh water, and he will be clean. 14 On the eighth day he must take two doves or two young pigeons and come before the LORD to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and give them to the priest. 15 The priest is to sacrifice them, the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement before the LORD for the man because of his discharge.
16 " 'When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.
19 " 'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.
20 " 'Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 22 Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening.
24 " 'If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.
25 " 'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period. 26 Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period. 27 Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
28 " 'When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29 On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.
31 " 'You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place, [a] which is among them.' "
32 These are the regulations for a man with a discharge, for anyone made unclean by an emission of semen, 33 for a woman in her monthly period, for a man or a woman with a discharge, and for a man who lies with a woman who is ceremonially unclean.
so... what if abouna has discharge?? is he not going to pray the liturgy?
How often is that rule followed, it seems unknown to many and not taught but in regards to women its alwayssss emphasized, is there also a reason for that?? However, aside from that doesnt a normal male have 10-12 erections each night thus always having discharge?? .... if thats true they would never be allowed to take communion. I love the Pope and everything he has to say and he made a good point. However, I am not convinced, I still dont understand the reasoning of being forbidden from Communion.
please pray for me.
This is an interesting question - about "what if priests have discharges" - as it raises the idea of women priests being a reality.
Im curious as to what Fr. Peter thinks
of course, not having intercourse the day before communion helps, and i think (i am a woman so not sure!) that men get less spontaneous discharges (wet dreams) as they get older. it's certainly much more common in adolescence, and as no priests are 15 or 16 years old, i assume it's not a problem.
i know the rules are a bit different in other orthodox churches, so i think different church fathers have interpreted these parts of the Bible differently over the years.
the main thing we should remember is that it's really good for our spiritual lives to learn obedience (it helps us conquer sin and be closer to God), and so it's better to be obedient to our priests and bishops than to spend time looking for a church whose 'rules' are easier to follow. in fact, in the rules are really easy, we may become lazy in our spiritual lives, and this would not be good.
I am still preparing a post about this subject. But there is a lot to consider. I have already written 6,845 words!
Father Peter
::) :-\
I came across an interesting piece of literature from the teachings of the Apostles concerning this topic!
I hope Fr Peter can comment on it, whether this is our teaching, and if not, where did it originate from.
Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions, section V Emphasis mine
I'm trying to understand where the teachings concerning nocturnal ejaculation that we hold come from, that it somehow breaks the fast and you're not allowed communion. It seems to contradict what is written in the teachings of the apostles. I'm no scholar in patristics or anything, so i'd wonder what are our current teachings based on.
It's always good to learn obedience, but the orthodox church is an apostolic church too. The question becomes how far do we obey if it's apparently not in agreement with (the general consensus) of church fathers / apostles (which is something that i'm still learning about concerning this topic among others).
but whatever God allows in yr life, He allows for a reason, so if u can't partake of Holy Communion for one of these reasons, but accept God's will and accept the judgement of the leaders He has given us, then you will have very much peace.
the wonderful experience of belonging and love we have during Holy Communion comes from God, but it is also God who gives us the peace that is beyond all understanding when we obey Him and accept to do something difficult because of our love of Him.
He dwells in us through His Holy Spirit even when we don't take communion. He tells us to obey those in authority over us and He tells us 'if you love me, you will obey my commandments.'
i think it is good to discuss these things, as we are dear children of God, and whoever loves children answers their many questions. but in the end, we should accept God's will.
I'm very eager to read what Fr Peter has investigated and compiled from all the sources he has studied so that we can come up with a solid argumented explanation instead of just saying to our youth: obey, this is what the church says (untill they find out that not all orthodox churches keep the same teaching, which is the time you really dont know what to say as a servant lol)