› ›

Antiquity of the St. Mark Icon

TheoferrumTheoferrum
edited December 1969 in Random Issues
Was wondering if anyone could tell me the antiquity of the original icon of st. mark - the one at the url below as I don't know how to imbed photos yet.

http://www.denver.net/~glenn/icon_stm.gif

Comments

  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Which one?

    If you are referring to the one from the url.  That was done by Dr. Isaac Fanous.  It is not ancient.  It is probably from the mid-1970's.
  • TheoferrumTheoferrum
    Yeah I was refering to the one at the url.

    Did he copy it from an original?  If so do you know when the original was done?
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    There are generally very very very few Coptic icons prior to the 17th century.  Simply because they were destroyed.  Prof Isaac Fanous is a rendition and an interpretation of several depictions of St. Mark in several places.  I could not give you an exact date.  The earliest complete rendition of St. Mark is at St. Mary (the Moallaqa) in Old Cairo. 

    At that same Church is the oldest icon of the Virgin Mary in the Coptic Orthodox Church.  It is one of six copies that were made of St. Luke, the Apostle's rendition of the Virgin Mary.  I believe there are only two surviving copies of the six.

    The Moallaqa, is a treasure of the Coptic Orthodox Church.  It has an amazing history.  As far as I am concerned, the most beautiful church in the world.  The priest there is Fr. Marcos Aziz.
  • TheoferrumTheoferrum
    Thank you very much for your help!

    I think I found out what I wanted to know.

    It would appear that he got some of his inspiration from the Pantokrator in St. Antony's Monastery (Deir Mar Antonios) for if you look at the Bible held by St. Mark and the Bible held by the Pantokrator, it has the same Diamond Symbol which is what I was interested in.  This is also why I first mistook the St. Mark Icon for an Icon of the Lord cause if you compare the two they look alot alike.

    The Mural of the Pantokrator dates to the 8th Century!

    Here is the Original :

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticpainting18.jpg

    And here is its restoration :

    http://www.iconsexplained.com/iec/lib/02491_christ_enthroned_coptic_wallpainting_st_anthony_monastery_egypt_mod1.jpg

    And here is the Iron of St. Mark :

    http://stanthonycocpa.org/images/St_Mark_Icon.gif
  • TheoferrumTheoferrum
    Both Bibles are held together by two binders as well!
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    There are plenty of icons with the same representations, not just that one at St. Anthony.  Also the icon in the url (the initial), the icon in its writing states in Coptic:  Mark the Apostle.

    The Coptic Museum has plenty of icons in their collection with similar renditions.

    I do not think that the two identifying features are specific for anything to be indicative of a particular source.
  • TheoferrumTheoferrum
    I know what you are saying, but what I am saying is that these are the only two that use a Diamond on the cover of the Bible and the artist must have got his inspiration from another Icon or Painting.

    So, you have the fact that they both look alike, both are wearing the same robes, both bibles have a diamond on it and both are held together by two binders.

    See what I mean?
  • TheoferrumTheoferrum
    Both figures are also surrounded by four objects or persons - the Pantokrator by four angels and Mark by the Tree, Lion, Lighthouse and Boat.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    I know what you mean, but I believe you are over reading into the issue.  If you go to the website for St. Mary in Los Angeles, California, you will find a large series of icons done by Prof. Isaac.  He has a tendency to be repetitive in his own icons.

    If you go to any of the collections of the Louvre and the Coptic Museum, you will find the same.

    I have been to the monasteries of Wadi Natrun, in the desert, and several mural restorations are similar.  You will find that certain renditions are repetitive in given eras.  Artists had a tendency to copy or be traveling.
  • ilovesaintmarkilovesaintmark
    Icons as a concept tell a story.  Different objects help to tell the story.  I believe it to be just coincidental that the four objects are surrounding.
  • TheoferrumTheoferrum
    [quote author=ilovesaintmark link=topic=8931.msg111765#msg111765 date=1268090231]
    I know what you mean, but I believe you are over reading into the issue.  If you go to the website for St. Mary in Los Angeles, California, you will find a large series of icons done by Prof. Isaac.  He has a tendency to be repetitive in his own icons.

    If you go to any of the collections of the Louvre and the Coptic Museum, you will find the same.

    I have been to the monasteries of Wadi Natrun, in the desert, and several mural restorations are similar.  You will find that certain renditions are repetitive in given eras.  Artists had a tendency to copy or be traveling.


    Yes, I understand this - this could be called a signature.  It doesn't matter how many times he uses this 'signature' - what I want to know is if he came up with this on his own, or if he had some inspiration for it and I think there is enough similarities with the painting to indicate he got it from that.  Iconography is not only an art, it is a heritage and the iconographers instill a sense of continuity with the past in their modern works.  The Shroud of Turin is the basis for a whole lineage of Icons of Y'shua and I have no doubt that the iconographer would have studied as many of the medieval works while in the process of reviving Coptic Iconography.  And, I have looked for this diamond signature on other Coptic Works and his is the only one other then this one from the 8th century.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    WHy think to much?!

    This "diamond" that you are talking about is just a cross....more specifically a coptic cross. In some other icons of saint Mark, and also the other 3 evangelists, have the "Book" in their hands and instead of the Cross in the middle, there would be the symbol of the book of the 4 incorporeal creatures. This "Book" I am also talking about is the Gospel....each evangelist according to his gospel. ACTUALLY, when you compare the icons of the 12 disciples, Matthew and John are the only ones with the Book/Gospel in their hands and the rest have mostly scrolls/epistles.

    Now about the Coptic Cross: it's different from the normal Catholic Cross where the bottom side is bigger; the physical shape of the Cross really. BUt the coptic one is a little different, 4 equal sides, each side have 3 edges (not shown the book but it is in other icons). the message is the salvation through the Cross, by the Holy Trinity, to the four corner of the Earth, the four sides of the Cross.
Sign In or Register to comment.