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BOYS AND GIRLS ---- URGENT
Our Church has spiralled out of control...
they are splitting up the boys and girls fromm everything we do toghether... ITS INSANE...
they treat us as ifwe are babies who do not know how to control themselves, who have no dignity or respect what so ever, and absoloutly no freedome...
help please...
they are splitting up the boys and girls fromm everything we do toghether... ITS INSANE...
they treat us as ifwe are babies who do not know how to control themselves, who have no dignity or respect what so ever, and absoloutly no freedome...
help please...
Comments
you have to know that they do trust you..but they dont trust the devil.
just bear with them n know that they are doing this for your benefit..n trust me its better this way than being together n regretting doing something...but even when you think your mind is matured dont ever let go of God's hand..because without God we are nothing JOHN 15:5 .
we had a church trip and there were some boys and girls who sneaked out of the hotel room at 2:30 in the morning
our servant was afraid they sinned
that is why they split you
you may have good intentions but the devil is strong
may God strengthen us
you may have good intentions but the devil is strong
may God strengthen us
the devil is not strong at all. in Tamav Erene's video, Mother Kireya said that the devil is as weak as straw when it is faced by the sign of the Cross. So just as long as we trust in the Almighty God and walk according to His words, we will not be overcome by evil. God is merciful, loving and compassionate.
I know the devil is weak if we pray and make the sign of the cross and keep repeating the Jesus prayer
But my point is we teenagers in this part of our lives
For most teenagers they won't stop and start praying and sign of the cross etc...
That is what i am saying
But i am sure you are very holy and with the Lord
Forgive me if i was wrong
many saints, when the devils came to them, they told them the smallest one of you can easily beat me!!!
the devil is too strong... that is why we stay away from things that might tempt us... because we are not close to the devil's strength!
yes of course when we are with Christ, the devil cant do much... but be ware not to think of the devil as something weak, because he is strong and persistent.
the power of the cross, and prayer with the right faith does overcome the devil...
now to the main topic... how dare the church do something like that... we cannot communicate with girls... or girls with us... is the world coming to an end?!
as mina said, what is your focus?! is it God... or is it kareema, buta, wa 3adeela?! focus on what you are going for... I was once thinking, what if they made a church for guys... and a church for girls... what would I do?
if I stop going, then I'm not going to church for God...
in your case their just doing that for a convention, retreat or whatever... are you going to stop going because of that, or are you going to go, and get the right aid you need?!
plus these girls that you will go INSANE because they're not with you aren't you going to see them in church?!
what if I tell you in your school sexes are going to be separated... are you going to stop going to school? or are you going to go to school and focus on your goal of success?
also think of others... when girls have their own retreats and conventions, wouldn't it be easier to talk about "their" topics openly and freely with the other girls... and same with guys wouldn't they be able to speak about their problems also with open mind and freedom?
there are many good things that come out of this... think maturely, and don't go insane!
akhadna el baraka... neshkor Allah!
Our Church has spiralled out of control...
they are splitting up the boys and girls fromm everything we do toghether... ITS INSANE...
they treat us as ifwe are babies who do not know how to control themselves, who have no dignity or respect what so ever, and absoloutly no freedome...
help please...
I am with you on this. I think this separation is completely ridiculous and unbiblical. It's actually very islamic. Instead of separating boys and girls, the Coptic church needs to teach these children how to behave appropriately and respect one another. We are taking away their innocence and allowing them to view the opposite sex as something bad that they need to stay away from. This is very unhealthy and all it does is create wild and crazy teenagers that no longer view each other as brothers and sisters . If kids can't behave themselves in the church then they will definitely not behave outside.
Saint Marina of Antioch (whose martyrdom is today!) overcame the devil by the power of the Cross. Never under-estimate the power of God. the devil might be strong if it is up against us the weak humans, but if he is faced by the power and glory of the Cross and God, then the devil is weak. I hope that cleared up any mis-interpretation.
Also God allows the devil to tempt us (like He did to the righteous Job) because sometimes God wants to give us a trial to test our love for Him (and God will never give something that we cant handle, and He always wants us to be refined as silver in malachi 3:3 "And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.")
however, our mind is limited to why God does these things- in John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." Has anyone watched the movie of Saint Abouna Mikhail El-Beheiri? It shows that although the devil made him blind but Abouna Mikhail El-Beheiri did not deviate in his spiritual life because nothing was stronger than his love for God..we should try to learn from the saints but we should learn from God first because Jesus said in Matthew 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." :D
in Isaiah 41:10-13 God says "Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought. For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee."
I am with you on this. I think this separation is completely ridiculous and unbiblical.
who said that this separation is within the one you are thinking of and that is the unbiblical. nothing in the bible says that this is wrong. show us a clear verse or even one that is interpreted right. as
hehe......wow.. really. tell me how does this separtion puts females "under/below/less" than males??!! the separation is done in the general-way. we cannot be like the world. We are not of the world. Those who do “mature” faster than others understand. Those who DON’T, then this is for their own benefit.The teachings are the same. But the teaching cannot become before the maturity of specific individuals.Their innocence have NOTHING to do with it because most of them lose it in today’s society. Yes, I said they lost it….you can disagree all you want but that’s what is generally happening in reality. the best we can do now is try to maintain what we have as best as we could. and AGAIN, that is not the main reason we are in church.
I also agree with all those that said that the devil is truly strong AGAINST US ALONE however against God or us with God on our side he is NOTHING. There are many verses and examples in the Bible that illustrate this.
Before i say anything i would like to share with you something that i heard in a sermon by Dr. Magdy Ishaak (if you don't know he is a psychologist and a great speaker in our church) specifically on this topic of mingling where he spoke with authority that it is absolutely wrong. He mentioned a story of his past where someone from a certain church asked him to go speak to the youth; however, they asked him that he give his lecture twice, once to the boys and once to the girls. Being greatly opposed to the idea of not allowing mingling in church activities and meetings he refused to go and speak.
Without getting into details i would just like to mention that this approach is never a good way to teach anything, especially when you are dealing with youth. In fact, all it does is make things worse.
pray for my weakness
but for all those affected i want to say, trust in God. He knows your pain. it is only He who can comfort you when u feel u r treated unfairly.
our Lord Jesus was often treated unfairly and He accepted it.
pray instead for your spiritual growth and the spiritual growth of your leaders.
then, if they made a mistake, they will (eventually) see it, and if you made a mistake you will see it too.
usually everyone is a little bit right and a little bit wrong and we all need to learn.
if you focus on learning more than teaching, you will grow in humility.
and pray for me too in my weakness.
Perhaps for you, you see the girls as your sister(s) etc.. but, maybe abouna and the servents think that some order is required.
Personally, each Church is different. In the Church in the UK & France, I can tell you that the relationships between the boys and girls appears to be a really healthy one. At least within the confines of the Church - I don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
I would sincerely suggest that you call Anba Angaelos and discuss that with him. He is also responsible for youth, and such a problem is something he is responsible for.
A priest once started a Friday youth meeting, and after about 1 month, it became like a meat market. He regreted the day it started. It was basically the Coptic Dating Service.
Unfortunately this kind of segregation is what leads to coptic meetings and conventions becoming meat markets. I have witnessed that myself and it's really disgusting. These girls and boys have not been allowed to interact with eachother and when they get any little chance later on, they sure do take full advantage of it and are quite aggresive about it too.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=8216.msg105060#msg105060 date=1248952832]
Personally, each Church is different. In the Church in the UK & France, I can tell you that the relationships between the boys and girls appears to be a really healthy one. At least within the confines of the Church - I don't know what goes on behind closed doors.
Sadly this is not true in America. The mentality of the Coptic people in some churches here is worse than in upper Egypt. You can't even talk to a member of the opposite sex without people gossiping.
I don't know anywhere in the Bible where Jesus separated boys and girls.
In the real world boys and girls have to deal with each other on a daily basis, so its better to instill values and morals instead of avoiding interaction.
Why do Copts have to bring the ziballa and bad habits from Egypt to the west for? If they were segregated in their schools back in Egypt, or in their sunday schools, they should have at least adopted some good qualities of the country they are residing in.
I remember, Canada was worse. I mean, the sunday school servents were so backward. They were on a wavelength that was so different to the youth. They were basically enforcing mannerisms, etiquette, behaviour etc on their classes that caused so many problems. If you were raised in Canada and came across these servents, then God help you.
And the worst part is - they couldnt even speak English. They actually have NO respect whatsoever for the Country that welcomes them. The only thing missing in these Churches was for abouna to put a picture of the President of Egypt on the walls within the Church, and open a falafel stall outside the Church.
These people (the elder generations) may have left Egypt to immigrate to another country, but they are TOTALLY unaware that the younger generation are not raised in Egypt and therefore do not really have to have these rules imposed on them. Such rules cause many problems also for the youth - I mean, if they are taught in Church that talking to girls is wrong - then that just gives them a handicapped in Western society where talking to girls is normal - especially in the workplace.
I admit, talking to girls in Egypt, at work - is OK - but its not the same as in Europe. Islam has had its effect on Egypt and the culture. There's only so much interaction you can have before a simple business dialog turns into a forced marriage proposal.
A lot of stuff I have seen from servents in our Church (especially those who were raised in Egypt) have NOTHING to do with Christianity. I pray they serve themselves 1st and learn English at least - or whatever language the Country speaks, and try to understand the country they are living in. I'm not AT ALL promoting anything wrong. I'm Orthodox - all the way - but, as you said - if you even talk to a girl in a Church, the tasooni's are there - ready to tell you "3eeb".
I blame the Tasooni's. They are always doing that!! They seem to have assigned themselves the position of Chaperone for the entire Orthodox Church.. and its a position which no one asked them to take up. And the weirdest thing is this: Every tasooni I met who acted like she was God's given chaperone to the Coptic Community, her own son or daughter was dating someone behind her back.
my opinion on this is there has to be a happy medium, which seems sometimes impossible with copts..
Church is so you can concentrate on GOD ! So, i think coptic youth should ..no, NEED, be given other chances to mingle....like youth meetings and etc.
segregating boys and girls in church activities is an awful idea because any boy or girl in the western world can step about 20 feet outside the church and find any person of the opposite sex to mingle with....so i don't understand what they think they are preventing...if these kids want to talk to the opposite sex and hang out...they will just do it with their school friends or team friends or whatever...and possible just end up sneaking around.
all they are doing, really, is forcing kids to look for friends elsewhere...pushing them out of their intended community
you would think they would rather kids befriend eachother and be tightly knit in the COC rather than ...elsewhere ...
and last i checked it wasn't a sin to be a boy or girl...and it actually seems like it is a times....i agree with Grace that they need to be taught how to act properly as brothers and sisters ...instead of just being restrained....this restraint method can't be healthy...
In America, there are Catholic single-gender high schools which are known to empower their students (especially the girls) in a single-sex environment so the concept is not just an Egyptian thing.
I think single-sex separation is best for the high school age, but totally uncalled for for college and graduate.
Sometimes problems that arise call for separation. I heard that the East Coast Coptic Youth Convention high school used to be COED, but that there were too many problems (like boys climbing out of their windows at night) and so they separated boys and girls for this convetion.
I really don't think it's a big deal for high school- ish aged kids, but not for older than that and obviously not little kids. I think there are valauble lessons to be learned from coed-interaction, but single-gender meetings/conventions/ activities of course are not useless either. I think wisdom needs to be used as to which environment to be employed.
Tasooni is coptic for 'my sister', this is how female servants in the church in Egypt are called...
This is also how priests' wives are called.
Refering to male servants
I disagree with the separation of Boys and Girls in the church. However there needs to be a separation at important times especially times in which there is discussion of personal things relating to each gender. other than that its important to keep the youth together and Yes it is a very islamic idea. when u cannot deal with girls or boys in church how can u go outside and face the ppl of the world?
"there needs to be separation at important times?"
oh? at what times? During which types of discussions? During which periods?
I'm not completely against separating them - but I just don't see why you want to separate them.
If they are children, it doesnt matter.
If they are teenages, you'd actually want to teach them how to be respectful to the opposite sex (if that was the problem). At school, in the west at least, not only do they discuss sensitive topics at a young age together in their schools, but they are not segregated.
I do, however, understand segregating them during the time of the mass. That's not a bad idea. However, not during prayer meetings, Church events, anything else like that. Although I think segregation is a good idea during the Holy Liturgy, I am not really that sure whether you should stress on that. I think it is pretty obvious that women are on the right, men on the left - but if a couple want to pray together (married or not) - they should be allowed, but perhaps at the back of the Church.
I mean, I think sevants should focus on serving the Church - cleaning, helping out - but going to the extent of literally interfering with people's lives is a bit too much.
I do not understand why they would be separated during liturgy. I wouldnt find that a problem. and during church meetings and youth activites No. But certain ages require that separation for a while in only a few activites Not everything and not all the time
If they wanted to address them as a group and talk to them personally - i think that's OK.
I think married couples should be allowed to stand together in Church. That annoys me that we are separated. Its awful. Its as if there's no respect for the union that is between husband and wife that we have to separate them during Holy Mass.
God bless
Most of the time u cannot discuss something of that type with both genders together. and there are of course topics which must be discussed separately. The fact that women and men sith on separate sides in the church: 1. is to keep order if men adn women were standing next to each other all over the place it would be a mess. People all over etc. 2. I dont know if there is biblical reference to it but theres a high possibility there is. 3. This does not disrespect in any way the bond of marriage and personally i think that it shows that the bond between god is stronger than the bond between the two, thats just my opinion.
God bless
Well, I disagree. But its OK to disagree.
If you wanted to talk about your sexual life and the spiritual implications of your own personal sexual life, then I would encourage you to do this at a 1 to 1 level with your Sunday School teacher - not even in a group. However, if you wanted to discuss topics that were sexual in nature - yet general - i.e. not about your personal sexual life, then I really do not see what is the big deal.
Unless you can give a good example, I really cannot see your point of view at all.
St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ
Through the prayer of faith we can obtain from the All-merciful and All-bestowing God all spiritual and indispensable earthly blessings besides, if only the prayer is fervent and the desire to obtain these blessings sincere. And what prayers the Church puts into our mouths! Such, that by means of them we can easily incline the Lord to be merciful to us and to bestow upon us every good gift. The enemy, knowing God's goodness and the power of prayer, endeavors by every means to deter us from it, or during the prayer tries to distract our minds, to hinder us by various passions and attachments to earthly things, or by hurry, disturbance, etc.