[quote author=dumdum link=topic=7874.msg102209#msg102209 date=1240517755] with the understanding that drinking alcohol is not a sin
There may be a lot of things not expressly forbidden in scripture. Yet, we learn from incidents around us that many of these things have a potentially destructive element, despite our attempts to rationalize or kid ourselves. If you ask me, I'd say its best avoided. Who benefits from it? Could the money have been better utilized?Is the consumption of alcohol edifying you or those around you?
Romans 14:19-21 (NIV) Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
Titus 2:12 (NIV) It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
1 Peter 4:7 (New International Version) The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version) For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
1 Peter 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
We've been taught that our faith isn't a set of harsh dos and don'ts. Its about living in a manner that brings glory to God. We've been blessed with a conscience-a God-given warning mechanism that prompts us to make a wise choice.
[quote author=rpm link=topic=7874.msg102219#msg102219 date=1240522007] There may be a lot of things not expressly forbidden in scripture. Yet, we learn from incidents around us that many of these things have a potentially destructive element, despite our attempts to rationalize or kid ourselves. If you ask me, I'd say its best avoided. Who benefits from it? Could the money have been better utilized?Is the consumption of alcohol edifying you or those around you?
I understand that drinking some alcohol is in fact edifying to the body. It aids in digestion and is good for circulation. I'm particularly fond of red wine, and whenever I remember to do so (which has been pretty rare lately) I like having a glass with dinner.
It seems that when someone says the word alcohol, many people's minds race directly to drinking in excess, so I would like to make the following disclaimers: Naturally I'm not saying drinking in excess is ok. We already know that anything in excess is bad, though drinking too much alcohol is probably much worse than too much soda. Another thing to point out is that underage drinking, in any amount, is exceptionally bad; from what I'm told, the human liver is not fully mature until (conservatively) 21, so drinking underage can cause premature damage.
I've been told that not drinking alcohol is in the bible, but I've only seen passages that say not to drink too much wine, and Jesus himself drank wine. (note that in those days they didn't have dealcoholized wine.)
hey guys i'm not asking if drinking alcohol is a sin, because i'm quite sure it isn't; i'm asking if its okay to buy alcohol for a liquor store as opposed to the supermaket?
[quote author=Godislove_ link=topic=7874.msg102218#msg102218 date=1240521607] yes it is sinful to drink liquor due to the fact that it is in the bible but we can drink concord grape wine because it is not alchoholic
Excuse me? Who said in the Bible that drinking alcohol is a sin?
I do believe that God Himself changed water into ALCOHOLIC wine at the wedding of Cana. I know it was wine that was alcoholic, as if it wasn't wine it would have been called grape juice or ribena.
Secondly, Our Lord chose wine to be His Blood in the last supper. In the church, this must be of a certain alcoholic specification. So - with all this, how can alcohol be a sin.
I would agree that drinking alcohol until you are drunk and abusive is a sin. But some people don't need alcohol to be abusive. They can just show up on tasbeha.org and engage in a discussion that's just as abusive WITHOUT alcohol.
That's very efficient of them actually. Its a smart and cost-effective way of being abusive without the need for drinking alcohol
[quote author=dumdum link=topic=7874.msg102234#msg102234 date=1240585771] hey guys i'm not asking if drinking alcohol is a sin, because i'm quite sure it isn't; i'm asking if its okay to buy alcohol for a liquor store as opposed to the supermaket?
oops . . . Sorry,
I'm pretty sure there is no sin in being in a liquor store, but that may depend on the person and the liquor store. If we're talking about a grungy (unprofessional) place that thrives on selling alcohol to people with serious problems then being there can put you in spiritual (and physical) jeopardy and yes, just being there is probably sinful. If the establishment isn't "all that bad", but it has a negative effect on your thinking, then it might be sinful anyway.
Then again these principles apply to any place, doesn't it? If you go to a supermarket or a bookstore and you feel like they make a living off of causing people to sin and/or it causes you to stumble, you may want to seek other options; who knows, maybe the liquor store will be more reputable.
Now, if I may, why are you asking? If it's just a compelling discount on a nice Zinfandel that you plan on taking advantage of, pick me up a bottle will you . . .
..i don't exactly understand HOW IN THE WORLD SHOPPING AT A LIQUOR STORE CAN BE A SIN?!?!??! i'm sorry but i just need to put it out there... i mean come on guys, i don't underttand how you guys can just look at Christianity as just a bunch laws and rules. :( it's really not at all.
I mean if you're going to buy alcohol, and drink within reasonable limits responsibbly, i'm failing to see what difference it makes where you purchase it. And also, where there is an addiction-causing substance, there also will be addicts, it makes no difference if your at a "supermarket" or liquor shop"
As QT has said khallas, lets follow. A note of caution though..........
At the end of the day, it boils down to the individual's choice. But a choice motivated by what? Its not really about being legalistic or following Leviticus A-Z. Different people handle temptations differently. But we need to realize that all addictions don't happen overnight. Some grow gradually over a period, but gain vicious control of the victim and takes forever to give up-think cigarettes, liquor, gambling etc. Sadly, however, not everyone knows where or how to draw the line or if in fact such a line actually exists.
A couple of guys I know, now deeply regret taking that first drag on a cigarette at high school. This seemingly innocent act has grown with them over the years and now they can't live without 40+ cigarettes a day. These guys have grown so dependent on it that they can't concentrate, work or drive without it. My dad, till he quit smoking, used to light up while watching a tennis tie-break or football penalty shoot-out on TV. More than a handful of relatives and acquaintances have suffered ailments directly attributed to various excesses. What started out as that rare smoke or drink, then "progressed" to social occasions and weekends, then most evenings to a stage where they could not do without being propped up by it during waking hours. Health, family life, finances and relationships have borne the brunt of this.
Youngsters take to new fads like a duck to water. Its just a matter of time before they start experimenting and venturing into dangerous territory. Watching the grown-ups gives these kids the added incentive to try out those very things. So guys, be cautious and alert to what kids are upto.
someone mentioned that it's important to realize the reason you do it. also, someone mentioned that they drink wine for health reasons. this could be true or it can be something that you are trying to convince yourself with to prove to yourself that you're innocent. a way to make sure is to ask yourself other questions like what else have you done to be healthy? do you go to the gym regularly? do you watch what you eat? if you don't do these things then you really don't drink wine to be healthy but rather this is just an excuse that you give to yourself to satisfy your conscience. even if you do do these things, concentrate on doing them more and they will work just as good as the wine if not better.
here is a thought to go with rpm's note of caution:
let's say you're walking on a very high and narrow bridge with no fences whatsoever, on what area of the bridge would you walk? would you walk in the middle to be safe or would you walk on the very edge trusting in your own power and saying to yourself "I can do it without falling"? what if the wind blows? what if you get dizzy? what if there happens to be tiny cracks that are invisible? then what??? if you fall it's over and the same thing goes for drinking.
therefore cross the bridge with caution unless you're a 100% sure that you can walk on the edge without falling which you can't because you're human. remember what St. Augustine says “Complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation”.
it's not bad (sinful) to walk on the very edge of the bridge, you can still make it to the end, but it's just not safe, and it's poinless. You will not gain anything by doing so. therefore, if you're humble and you know your weaknesses, take the safe route.
Yes, drink in moderation. Please please don't get drunk. But consumption of alcohol is not a sin, so long as you don't keep it all to yourself and you share it, and you don't get drunk.
I mean, if I had a bottle of Baileys or SoCo - and I didnt share it. That's wrong. That's just being greedy. But if I keep it and get drunk over it, that's a sin. So the best way not to get drunk is to share it.
I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
I think people who get drunk have a problem - and it is emotional. They are trying to fill a void in their hearts by using alcohol, or they are displacing problems rather than dealing with them through getting drunk. But alcohol isnt the problem. It is how they are dealing with it. (That's my opinion anyway).
But - definately RPM, good point anyway - I agree - and God will most definately reward such sincerity.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102258#msg102258 date=1240697012] I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
if you don't have to cross the bridge then don't, but sometimes you have to to get to the other side. therefore, do it with caution and stay in the middle rather than the very edge.
drinking in moderation is something that you don't have to do, but leaving the house to go do whatever is; therefore, do it with caution.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102259#msg102259 date=1240697742] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102258#msg102258 date=1240697012] I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
if you don't have to cross the bridge then don't, but sometimes you have to to get to the other side. therefore, do it with caution and stay in the middle rather than the very edge.
drinking in moderation is something that you don't have to do, but leaving the house to go do whatever is; therefore, do it with caution.
That's a good point the_least. No one is forcing me to drink anything, but it would be really a shame to say "No" to a nice glass of Cognac or Baileys to help wind down after a long discussion with certain people on tasbeha.org.
forgive me but like this you're resorting to an idol God to comfort you rather than going to the living God for comfort.
you may think that the idol God helps but really....read this verse from
Psalm 115:4-8 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands. 5 They have mouths, but they do not speak; Eyes they have, but they do not see; 6 They have ears, but they do not hear; Noses they have, but they do not smell; 7 They have hands, but they do not handle; Feet they have, but they do not walk; Nor do they mutter through their throat. 8 Those who make them are like them; So is everyone who trusts in them.
forgive me, i am not saying this to attack you or judge you in any way, I am just making a point
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102261#msg102261 date=1240698776] forgive me but like this you're resorting to an idol God to comfort you rather than going to the living God for comfort.
you may think that the idol God helps but really....read this verse from
Psalm 115:4-8 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands. 5 They have mouths, but they do not speak; Eyes they have, but they do not see; 6 They have ears, but they do not hear; Noses they have, but they do not smell; 7 They have hands, but they do not handle; Feet they have, but they do not walk; Nor do they mutter through their throat. 8 Those who make them are like them; So is everyone who trusts in them.
forgive me, i am not saying this to attack you or judge you in any way, I am just making a point
pray for my weaknesses
Hey the_least,
I'm not sure I know or understand exactly what you mean: are you saying that my idol God is "alcohol"?
hangon.. you are saying that I am resorting to an idol God by drinking? But - is it SO bad to enjoy a nice glass of wine with a few friends?
I mean, a nice meal, followed by a good quality wine - is that bad?
If its red wine - would that be better than baileys? because to be honest with you, I'm not that stunned by baileys.. i had this irish coffee once - and I can tell u, it did my head in, so I'm really better off drinking wine.
But do you think the fact that I like drinking wine is bad, or that it is an idol now?
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102263#msg102263 date=1240699099] yes, because you said you go to it to "wind down" when you should be going to God. anything that takes place of God is an idol God to us.
I think (correct me if i am wrong, please)
Oh my goodness! Yes.. that's a really good point..
Generally , I enjoy a glass of wine, but I do pray to God to give me patience when I'm confronted by dishonest Bishops and crooked priests in my Church. They make my blood boil.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102265#msg102265 date=1240699261] Generally , I enjoy a glass of wine, but I do pray to God to give me patience when I'm confronted by dishonest Bishops and crooked priests in my Church. They make my blood boil.
i am no one to tell you this, but let's not talk about others here, especially clergy.
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24).
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102264#msg102264 date=1240699178] is it SO bad to enjoy a nice glass of wine with a few friends?
you tell me! is it that bad to walk on the very edge of the bridge with my friends for absolutely no reason at all but to be unsafe because i trust in my own power and that i can do it without falling?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102264#msg102264 date=1240699178] But do you think the fact that I like drinking wine is bad, or that it is an idol now?
well ya, like i said, if you resort to it for comfort then ya it is an idol God to you. because you should be going to God to comfort you because he is the only who can
well ya, like i said, if you resort to it for comfort then ya it is an idol God to you. because you should be going to God to comfort you because he is the only who can
Well, I only resort to it when I have to deal with priests and bishops. They can burn your blood and then if you scream they get all "im a priest, how dare you scream" at you, and the only thing that helps is a strong glass of whiskey.
But Im not talking about them.. im just saying the conditions that lead me to drink. That was the main one.
Now, thank God, I pray a bit more.. and I stay away from them.
don't stay away from the priests and bishops because that is one of the bridges that you have to cross. but rather stay away from the thoughts that lead your blood to boil and lead you to drink.
read this verse again keeping in mind that that strong glass of whiskey is an idol God to you
Psalm 115:4-8 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands. 5 They have mouths, but they do not speak; Eyes they have, but they do not see; 6 They have ears, but they do not hear; Noses they have, but they do not smell; 7 They have hands, but they do not handle; Feet they have, but they do not walk; Nor do they mutter through their throat. 8 Those who make them are like them; So is everyone who trusts in them.
and remember this verse:
Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other"
you cannot go to this God for that situation and this god for another. and remember the first commandment:
Exodus 20:2-6 2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102269#msg102269 date=1240701433] don't stay away from the priests and bishops because that is one of the bridges that you have to cross. but rather stay away from the thoughts that lead your blood to boil and lead you to drink.
Wow.. thanks mate.
read this verse again keeping in mind that that strong glass of whiskey is an idol God to you
OK.. one second here: OK.. drinking to overcome a problem is bad. I agree. You made your argument very well. However, a GLASS of wine on a nice sunny day, out with a few friends... i mean.. its just a small glass of wine.. Surely, this cannot be so bad???
Psalm 115:4-8 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of men’s hands. 5 They have mouths, but they do not speak; Eyes they have, but they do not see; 6 They have ears, but they do not hear; Noses they have, but they do not smell; 7 They have hands, but they do not handle; Feet they have, but they do not walk; Nor do they mutter through their throat. 8 Those who make them are like them; So is everyone who trusts in them.
and remember this verse:
OK.. fair enough, but do u really feel that drinking something alcoholic is so bad when you are doing it simply because it is sociable and healthy. Yes, red wine is very healthy for u.
Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other"
you cannot go to this God for that situation and this god for another. and remember the first commandment:
Exodus 20:2-6 2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."
and pray for me
Oh dear...
But, I'm not addicted to wine. Nor am I addicted to having bad thoughts. I'm just reminded and provoked very easily in having negative thoughts. I really liked your 1st statement. I found it really to the point and doo-able.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102270#msg102270 date=1240702989] a GLASS of wine on a nice sunny day, out with a few friends... i mean.. its just a small glass of wine.. Surely, this cannot be so bad???
please, tell me exactly the reason you do it. why can't you just have a nice cold non-alcoholic drink and walk in the middle of the bridge rather than risking it and walking on the very edge. it just doesn't make sense.
and concerning the health thing read what i wrote before below [quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102257#msg102257 date=1240694217] someone mentioned that they drink wine for health reasons. this could be true or it can be something that you are trying to convince yourself with to prove to yourself that you're innocent. a way to make sure is to ask yourself other questions like what else have you done to be healthy? do you go to the gym regularly? do you watch what you eat? if you don't do these things then you really don't drink wine to be healthy but rather this is just an excuse that you give to yourself to satisfy your conscience. even if you do do these things, concentrate on doing them more and they will work just as good as the wine if not better.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102260#msg102260 date=1240697998] [quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102259#msg102259 date=1240697742] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102258#msg102258 date=1240697012] I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
if you don't have to cross the bridge then don't, but sometimes you have to to get to the other side. therefore, do it with caution and stay in the middle rather than the very edge.
drinking in moderation is something that you don't have to do, but leaving the house to go do whatever is; therefore, do it with caution.
That's a good point the_least. No one is forcing me to drink anything, but it would be really a shame to say "No" to a nice glass of Cognac or Baileys to help wind down after a long discussion with certain people on tasbeha.org.
Please take this piece of advice from a sincere sister in Christ.
DO NOT ask for trouble, it comes on its own well enough. If you desire to make a point, make it using a reference that will not/ cannot offend anyone. This also includes clergy, for they are ordained by God and have His Spirit. It does not matter your personal preference to them. They remain clergy regardless.
[quote author=Christ4Life link=topic=7874.msg102278#msg102278 date=1240718406] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102260#msg102260 date=1240697998] [quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102259#msg102259 date=1240697742] [quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102258#msg102258 date=1240697012] I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
if you don't have to cross the bridge then don't, but sometimes you have to to get to the other side. therefore, do it with caution and stay in the middle rather than the very edge.
drinking in moderation is something that you don't have to do, but leaving the house to go do whatever is; therefore, do it with caution.
That's a good point the_least. No one is forcing me to drink anything, but it would be really a shame to say "No" to a nice glass of Cognac or Baileys to help wind down after a long discussion with certain people on tasbeha.org.
Please take this piece of advice from a sincere sister in Christ.
DO NOT ask for trouble, it comes on its own well enough. If you desire to make a point, make it using a reference that will not/ cannot offend anyone. This also includes clergy, for they are ordained by God and have His Spirit. It does not matter your personal preference to them. They remain clergy regardless.
OK.. Christ4Life, I totally see your point. I think so not to ruin this thread, I'll create a new one and discuss this issue in a mature way.
Pardon my rather basic knowledge of Scripture and correct me where I’m wrong. But as I understand it, whatever grievances we have against anyone, we ought to reconcile with them before offering our prayers to God. Therefore, just as we pray for our family and friends, I believe we also should pray separately for the clergy. I’d like to share these prayers I found on an Orthodox site. I find them pretty comforting and relevant .
O God, our heavenly Father, who loves mankind and are a most merciful and compassionate God, have mercy upon Your servants (Name those whom you wish to remember) for whom I humbly pray to You to care for and protect. O God, be their guide and guardian in all their endeavors, lead them in the path of Your truth, and draw them nearer to You, so that they may lead a godly and righteous life in Your love as they do Your will in all things. Give them Your grace, and mercy so that they may be patient, hardworking, tireless, devout and charitable. Defend them against the assaults of the enemy, and grant them wisdom and strength to resist all temptation and corruption, and direct them in the way of Salvation, through the goodness of Your Son, our Savior Jesus Christ, and the prayers of His Holy Mother and the blessed saints. Amen.
Lord Jesus Christ, in Your great mercy You prayed for the forgiveness of those who crucified You, and You taught us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. Lord, I pray that You forgive those who treat me unjustly and speak out against me, and that You bless them and guide them according to Your will. Take away any bitterness I may have in my heart against them. Lord, may Your forgiveness, goodness and love be revealed in all of us, to Your praise and glory. Amen.
While we go to God in prayer seeking His answers to our troubles, I believe we should do so as is, in our actual condition, in all humility and with repentance. Having a drink or two, in my opinion, dulls our senses, makes us less receptive, less responsive, less ourselves and more someone else.
Ephesians 4 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
I've some pretty serious differences of opinion with my wife regarding our faiths. While I'm a traditional Orthodox guy, she has Pentecostal leanings. But whatever the issues, I've realized that no amount of blood boiling and harboring grudge will enable God to work something out. Rather, prayer and more prayer helps soften us a great deal to make us absorb more of His grace.
This thread's sure flown off at a tangent.............my sincere apologies to dumdum.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102261#msg102261 date=1240698776] forgive me but like this you're resorting to an idol God to comfort you rather than going to the living God for comfort.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102263#msg102263 date=1240699099] yes, because you said you go to it to "wind down" when you should be going to God. anything that takes place of God is an idol God to us.
the_least,
What exactly is your criteria for declaring something an idol? I was always under the impression that an idol was something expressly made to pray to, usually in the form of a statue or symbol.
I presume based on the above quotes that one of your criteria is that an idol is something that a person uses to replace God, and in some instances that is a perfectly clear line of reasoning, namely when it comes to our object of reverence and worship. It's not so clear to me when it comes to more mundane things. You've mentionned that using wine as an agent for "wind[ing] down" and "comfort" is idolatry because we should be going to God for these things. Does this also mean that comfortable chairs are idols? I like to call my mother for a bunch of different reasons, but I could be going to God for all of those things; is my mother an idol? I like to read for the health of my mind and eat for the health of my body; are books and food idols?
George
* * *
anyone interested,
This is a really annoying topic (among others) for me because now, all of a sudden, scriptural teachings are not good enough. The Bible says to not drink in excess, now I find that there are a score of rules for the deaconate that nobody told me about when I was ordained one of which says not to drink any wine at all. http://www.scribd.com/doc/14644/Deacons.
My problem is not that the alcohol is a big deal, I usually average about a glass of wine every couple of weeks or so, and I haven't had any at all since reading the new instructions for the deaconate. My problem is in the administration of rules with no scriptural basis and very little logical explanation. I'm already working on the instructions given by Anba Youssef http://www.suscopts.org/deacons/deaconship/deacons_instructions.pdf. This will take enough time as is and effort for me memorize the Psalms and to internalize the actions to do them in a genuinely spiritual way. On top of that I have a number of other significant religious issues (a non-coptic Fiancee among other things). Now adding the wine thing on top of that, as insignificant as it is, is just annoying. What's next? Is coffee a sin too? I'm sorry, but I don't think it is the role of my church fathers to effect changes in my life at this intimate of a level; I think that position is reserved for God and God alone, because He alone is my master, and He is already active in my life on a very intimite level including in my consumption of alcohol. (I used to drink in excess)
Even still, the deaconate is justly in the hands of those church fathers, so maybe I ought to just stop serving. . .
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7874.msg103635#msg103635 date=1243739473] [quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102261#msg102261 date=1240698776] forgive me but like this you're resorting to an idol God to comfort you rather than going to the living God for comfort.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102263#msg102263 date=1240699099] yes, because you said you go to it to "wind down" when you should be going to God. anything that takes place of God is an idol God to us.
the_least,
What exactly is your criteria for declaring something an idol? I was always under the impression that an idol was something expressly made to pray to, usually in the form of a statue or symbol.
My comment is not really on topic (at least the title question), but just on this one things you said. I have to say that I agree with this quote from "the least", at least with the second part of it.
In the OT, it's true that idols referred to stone objects of worship. Now obviously most people today don't worship such things, but many are still idolaters. Idols can include money, other people, one's own self,work, school, career, material objects like a car, jewelry. I like the way the least defined an idol as anything or anyone that takes the place of God in your life.
So what does that mean? That means that it is the center of your life. That means that it consumes your thoughts, you live your life with it in mind, and basically it's the most important thing in the world to you. Even other people can be idols. Remember Christ said "Whoever loves sister, mother, children, spouse, etc. more than Me is not worthy of Me".
Idolatry, almost most people wouldn't admit it or recognize it, is very common. I think that if there was no idolatry in your heart, then you would be fully faithful to God and never sin—which doesn't really happen (except I guess with the saints—but even they struggle). So it's something we struggle against—but ya, idolatry is something we need to beware of. It's it's more important (and be honest with yourself) to you than God, it's an idol.
That is a very good point. Putting anything or anyone in a position in our life more important than God is definitely wrong, but I still don't think it is idolatry. It is true that the secondary definition of idolatry is excess devotion to something, and this must be related to what you're saying, but it is very presumptuous to say that someone is devoted to something when you don't know them. If a person's life is centered on money or material posessions they are worldly minded and foolish in that they are neglecting the health of their own soul and they are missing out on the free gift of grace that comes from serving God above all else, but they are not idoaters.
Frankly, despite the dictionary definition, I think there is a serious danger in calling all sin idolatry, and it is precisely the point about minding your center that you brought up that brings me to my conclusion. A person can't necessarily determine their personal center by figuring out what it is they like the most. You know your center by what influences most of what you do and how you make your decisions. If all of your actions are strongly influenced by avoiding idolatry then, I'm sorry to say, I think you just may be idolatry centered.
This is precisely why I think individual sins don't necessarily need names or categories. Lying is not a sin because it is somehow idolatry; it is a sin because it is an abomination of the mechanisms of speech and communication that God gave us to communicate truth. The love of material posessions is not a sin because it is somehow idolatry; it is a sin because the entire creation belongs to God and calling anything a posession is an act of coveting those things that God, in his infinite love, allows us to enjoy.
On the other hand idolatry, defined primarily as the worship of idols, is a sin because it is idolatry. It is a sin because it violates the first commandment (as counted in the orthodox faiths) given to Moses. It is a sin because it is a direct insult to God's plan for our salvation in that He is our God and we are His people.
Comments
but we can drink concord grape wine because it is not alchoholic
with the understanding that drinking alcohol is not a sin
There may be a lot of things not expressly forbidden in scripture. Yet, we learn from incidents around us that many of these things have a potentially destructive element, despite our attempts to rationalize or kid ourselves. If you ask me, I'd say its best avoided. Who benefits from it? Could the money have been better utilized?Is the consumption of alcohol edifying you or those around you?
Romans 14:19-21 (NIV)
Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
Titus 2:12 (NIV)
It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
1 Peter 4:7 (New International Version)
The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray.
Romans 12:3 (New International Version)
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
1 Peter 5:8
Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
We've been taught that our faith isn't a set of harsh dos and don'ts. Its about living in a manner that brings glory to God. We've been blessed with a conscience-a God-given warning mechanism that prompts us to make a wise choice.
GBU,
R
There may be a lot of things not expressly forbidden in scripture. Yet, we learn from incidents around us that many of these things have a potentially destructive element, despite our attempts to rationalize or kid ourselves. If you ask me, I'd say its best avoided. Who benefits from it? Could the money have been better utilized?Is the consumption of alcohol edifying you or those around you?
I understand that drinking some alcohol is in fact edifying to the body. It aids in digestion and is good for circulation. I'm particularly fond of red wine, and whenever I remember to do so (which has been pretty rare lately) I like having a glass with dinner.
It seems that when someone says the word alcohol, many people's minds race directly to drinking in excess, so I would like to make the following disclaimers: Naturally I'm not saying drinking in excess is ok. We already know that anything in excess is bad, though drinking too much alcohol is probably much worse than too much soda. Another thing to point out is that underage drinking, in any amount, is exceptionally bad; from what I'm told, the human liver is not fully mature until (conservatively) 21, so drinking underage can cause premature damage.
I've been told that not drinking alcohol is in the bible, but I've only seen passages that say not to drink too much wine, and Jesus himself drank wine. (note that in those days they didn't have dealcoholized wine.)
George
yes it is sinful to drink liquor due to the fact that it is in the bible
but we can drink concord grape wine because it is not alchoholic
Excuse me? Who said in the Bible that drinking alcohol is a sin?
I do believe that God Himself changed water into ALCOHOLIC wine at the wedding of Cana. I know it was wine that was alcoholic, as if it wasn't wine it would have been called grape juice or ribena.
Secondly, Our Lord chose wine to be His Blood in the last supper. In the church, this must be of a certain alcoholic specification. So - with all this, how can alcohol be a sin.
I would agree that drinking alcohol until you are drunk and abusive is a sin. But some people don't need alcohol to be abusive. They can just show up on tasbeha.org and engage in a discussion that's just as abusive WITHOUT alcohol.
That's very efficient of them actually. Its a smart and cost-effective way of being abusive without the need for drinking alcohol
hey guys i'm not asking if drinking alcohol is a sin, because i'm quite sure it isn't; i'm asking if its okay to buy alcohol for a liquor store as opposed to the supermaket?
oops . . . Sorry,
I'm pretty sure there is no sin in being in a liquor store, but that may depend on the person and the liquor store. If we're talking about a grungy (unprofessional) place that thrives on selling alcohol to people with serious problems then being there can put you in spiritual (and physical) jeopardy and yes, just being there is probably sinful. If the establishment isn't "all that bad", but it has a negative effect on your thinking, then it might be sinful anyway.
Then again these principles apply to any place, doesn't it? If you go to a supermarket or a bookstore and you feel like they make a living off of causing people to sin and/or it causes you to stumble, you may want to seek other options; who knows, maybe the liquor store will be more reputable.
Now, if I may, why are you asking? If it's just a compelling discount on a nice Zinfandel that you plan on taking advantage of, pick me up a bottle will you . . .
George
i'm sorry but i just need to put it out there...
i mean come on guys, i don't underttand how you guys can just look at Christianity as just a bunch laws and rules. :(
it's really not at all.
I mean if you're going to buy alcohol, and drink within reasonable limits responsibbly, i'm failing to see what difference it makes where you purchase it.
And also, where there is an addiction-causing substance, there also will be addicts, it makes no difference if your at a "supermarket" or liquor shop"
At the end of the day, it boils down to the individual's choice. But a choice motivated by what? Its not really about being legalistic or following Leviticus A-Z. Different people handle temptations differently. But we need to realize that all addictions don't happen overnight. Some grow gradually over a period, but gain vicious control of the victim and takes forever to give up-think cigarettes, liquor, gambling etc. Sadly, however, not everyone knows where or how to draw the line or if in fact such a line actually exists.
A couple of guys I know, now deeply regret taking that first drag on a cigarette at high school. This seemingly innocent act has grown with them over the years and now they can't live without 40+ cigarettes a day. These guys have grown so dependent on it that they can't concentrate, work or drive without it. My dad, till he quit smoking, used to light up while watching a tennis tie-break or football penalty shoot-out on TV. More than a handful of relatives and acquaintances have suffered ailments directly attributed to various excesses. What started out as that rare smoke or drink, then "progressed" to social occasions and weekends, then most evenings to a stage where they could not do without being propped up by it during waking hours. Health, family life, finances and relationships have borne the brunt of this.
Youngsters take to new fads like a duck to water. Its just a matter of time before they start experimenting and venturing into dangerous territory. Watching the grown-ups gives these kids the added incentive to try out those very things. So guys, be cautious and alert to what kids are upto.
GBU,
R
someone mentioned that it's important to realize the reason you do it. also, someone mentioned that they drink wine for health reasons. this could be true or it can be something that you are trying to convince yourself with to prove to yourself that you're innocent. a way to make sure is to ask yourself other questions like what else have you done to be healthy? do you go to the gym regularly? do you watch what you eat? if you don't do these things then you really don't drink wine to be healthy but rather this is just an excuse that you give to yourself to satisfy your conscience. even if you do do these things, concentrate on doing them more and they will work just as good as the wine if not better.
here is a thought to go with rpm's note of caution:
let's say you're walking on a very high and narrow bridge with no fences whatsoever, on what area of the bridge would you walk? would you walk in the middle to be safe or would you walk on the very edge trusting in your own power and saying to yourself "I can do it without falling"? what if the wind blows? what if you get dizzy? what if there happens to be tiny cracks that are invisible? then what??? if you fall it's over and the same thing goes for drinking.
therefore cross the bridge with caution unless you're a 100% sure that you can walk on the edge without falling which you can't because you're human. remember what St. Augustine says “Complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation”.
it's not bad (sinful) to walk on the very edge of the bridge, you can still make it to the end, but it's just not safe, and it's poinless. You will not gain anything by doing so. therefore, if you're humble and you know your weaknesses, take the safe route.
here, read Fr. Peter's really long post on this forum and you will learn more.
http://tasbeha.org/content/community/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=7755;boardseen=1
thanks and pray for me
I mean, if I had a bottle of Baileys or SoCo - and I didnt share it. That's wrong. That's just being greedy. But if I keep it and get drunk over it, that's a sin. So the best way not to get drunk is to share it.
I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
I think people who get drunk have a problem - and it is emotional. They are trying to fill a void in their hearts by using alcohol, or they are displacing problems rather than dealing with them through getting drunk. But alcohol isnt the problem. It is how they are dealing with it. (That's my opinion anyway).
But - definately RPM, good point anyway - I agree - and God will most definately reward such sincerity.
I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
if you don't have to cross the bridge then don't, but sometimes you have to to get to the other side. therefore, do it with caution and stay in the middle rather than the very edge.
drinking in moderation is something that you don't have to do, but leaving the house to go do whatever is; therefore, do it with caution.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102258#msg102258 date=1240697012]
I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
if you don't have to cross the bridge then don't, but sometimes you have to to get to the other side. therefore, do it with caution and stay in the middle rather than the very edge.
drinking in moderation is something that you don't have to do, but leaving the house to go do whatever is; therefore, do it with caution.
That's a good point the_least. No one is forcing me to drink anything, but it would be really a shame to say "No" to a nice glass of Cognac or Baileys to help wind down after a long discussion with certain people on tasbeha.org.
you may think that the idol God helps but really....read this verse from
Psalm 115:4-8
Their idols are silver and gold,
The work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they do not speak;
Eyes they have, but they do not see;
6 They have ears, but they do not hear;
Noses they have, but they do not smell;
7 They have hands, but they do not handle;
Feet they have, but they do not walk;
Nor do they mutter through their throat.
8 Those who make them are like them;
So is everyone who trusts in them.
forgive me, i am not saying this to attack you or judge you in any way, I am just making a point
pray for my weaknesses
forgive me but like this you're resorting to an idol God to comfort you rather than going to the living God for comfort.
you may think that the idol God helps but really....read this verse from
Psalm 115:4-8
Their idols are silver and gold,
The work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they do not speak;
Eyes they have, but they do not see;
6 They have ears, but they do not hear;
Noses they have, but they do not smell;
7 They have hands, but they do not handle;
Feet they have, but they do not walk;
Nor do they mutter through their throat.
8 Those who make them are like them;
So is everyone who trusts in them.
forgive me, i am not saying this to attack you or judge you in any way, I am just making a point
pray for my weaknesses
Hey the_least,
I'm not sure I know or understand exactly what you mean: are you saying that my idol God is "alcohol"?
I think (correct me if i am wrong, please)
I mean, a nice meal, followed by a good quality wine - is that bad?
If its red wine - would that be better than baileys? because to be honest with you, I'm not that stunned by baileys.. i had this irish coffee once - and I can tell u, it did my head in, so I'm really better off drinking wine.
But do you think the fact that I like drinking wine is bad, or that it is an idol now?
yes, because you said you go to it to "wind down" when you should be going to God. anything that takes place of God is an idol God to us.
I think (correct me if i am wrong, please)
Oh my goodness! Yes.. that's a really good point..
Generally , I enjoy a glass of wine, but I do pray to God to give me patience when I'm confronted by dishonest Bishops and crooked priests in my Church. They make my blood boil.
Generally , I enjoy a glass of wine, but I do pray to God to give me patience when I'm confronted by dishonest Bishops and crooked priests in my Church. They make my blood boil.
i am no one to tell you this, but let's not talk about others here, especially clergy.
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other" (Matthew 6:24).
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102264#msg102264 date=1240699178]
is it SO bad to enjoy a nice glass of wine with a few friends?
you tell me! is it that bad to walk on the very edge of the bridge with my friends for absolutely no reason at all but to be unsafe because i trust in my own power and that i can do it without falling?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102264#msg102264 date=1240699178]
But do you think the fact that I like drinking wine is bad, or that it is an idol now?
well ya, like i said, if you resort to it for comfort then ya it is an idol God to you. because you should be going to God to comfort you because he is the only who can
well ya, like i said, if you resort to it for comfort then ya it is an idol God to you. because you should be going to God to comfort you because he is the only who can
Well, I only resort to it when I have to deal with priests and bishops. They can burn your blood and then if you scream they get all "im a priest, how dare you scream" at you, and the only thing that helps is a strong glass of whiskey.
But Im not talking about them.. im just saying the conditions that lead me to drink. That was the main one.
Now, thank God, I pray a bit more.. and I stay away from them.
read this verse again keeping in mind that that strong glass of whiskey is an idol God to you
Psalm 115:4-8
Their idols are silver and gold,
The work of men’s hands.
5 They have mouths, but they do not speak;
Eyes they have, but they do not see;
6 They have ears, but they do not hear;
Noses they have, but they do not smell;
7 They have hands, but they do not handle;
Feet they have, but they do not walk;
Nor do they mutter through their throat.
8 Those who make them are like them;
So is everyone who trusts in them.
and remember this verse:
Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other"
you cannot go to this God for that situation and this god for another. and remember the first commandment:
Exodus 20:2-6
2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."
and pray for me
don't stay away from the priests and bishops because that is one of the bridges that you have to cross. but rather stay away from the thoughts that lead your blood to boil and lead you to drink.
Wow.. thanks mate. OK.. one second here: OK.. drinking to overcome a problem is bad. I agree. You made your argument very well. However, a GLASS of wine on a nice sunny day, out with a few friends... i mean.. its just a small glass of wine..
Surely, this cannot be so bad??? OK.. fair enough, but do u really feel that drinking something alcoholic is so bad when you are doing it simply because it is sociable and healthy. Yes, red wine is very healthy for u. Oh dear...
But, I'm not addicted to wine. Nor am I addicted to having bad thoughts. I'm just reminded and provoked very easily in having negative thoughts. I really liked your 1st statement. I found it really to the point and doo-able.
Thanks for your response.
God bless
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102270#msg102270 date=1240702989]
a GLASS of wine on a nice sunny day, out with a few friends... i mean.. its just a small glass of wine..
Surely, this cannot be so bad???
please, tell me exactly the reason you do it. why can't you just have a nice cold non-alcoholic drink and walk in the middle of the bridge rather than risking it and walking on the very edge. it just doesn't make sense.
and concerning the health thing read what i wrote before below
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102257#msg102257 date=1240694217]
someone mentioned that they drink wine for health reasons. this could be true or it can be something that you are trying to convince yourself with to prove to yourself that you're innocent. a way to make sure is to ask yourself other questions like what else have you done to be healthy? do you go to the gym regularly? do you watch what you eat? if you don't do these things then you really don't drink wine to be healthy but rather this is just an excuse that you give to yourself to satisfy your conscience. even if you do do these things, concentrate on doing them more and they will work just as good as the wine if not better.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102259#msg102259 date=1240697742]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102258#msg102258 date=1240697012]
I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
if you don't have to cross the bridge then don't, but sometimes you have to to get to the other side. therefore, do it with caution and stay in the middle rather than the very edge.
drinking in moderation is something that you don't have to do, but leaving the house to go do whatever is; therefore, do it with caution.
That's a good point the_least. No one is forcing me to drink anything, but it would be really a shame to say "No" to a nice glass of Cognac or Baileys to help wind down after a long discussion with certain people on tasbeha.org.
Please take this piece of advice from a sincere sister in Christ.
DO NOT ask for trouble, it comes on its own well enough. If you desire to make a point, make it using a reference that will not/ cannot offend anyone. This also includes clergy, for they are ordained by God and have His Spirit. It does not matter your personal preference to them. They remain clergy regardless.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102260#msg102260 date=1240697998]
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102259#msg102259 date=1240697742]
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7874.msg102258#msg102258 date=1240697012]
I just can't help RPM, to think that the logical conclusion of what you are saying is that you might as well not leave your home just in case you come across a woman in the street who could tempt you into having lustful thoughts.. so, its best not to leave the home.
if you don't have to cross the bridge then don't, but sometimes you have to to get to the other side. therefore, do it with caution and stay in the middle rather than the very edge.
drinking in moderation is something that you don't have to do, but leaving the house to go do whatever is; therefore, do it with caution.
That's a good point the_least. No one is forcing me to drink anything, but it would be really a shame to say "No" to a nice glass of Cognac or Baileys to help wind down after a long discussion with certain people on tasbeha.org.
Please take this piece of advice from a sincere sister in Christ.
DO NOT ask for trouble, it comes on its own well enough. If you desire to make a point, make it using a reference that will not/ cannot offend anyone. This also includes clergy, for they are ordained by God and have His Spirit. It does not matter your personal preference to them. They remain clergy regardless.
OK.. Christ4Life, I totally see your point. I think so not to ruin this thread, I'll create a new one and discuss this issue in a mature way.
O God, our heavenly Father, who loves mankind and are a most merciful and compassionate God, have mercy upon Your servants (Name those whom you wish to remember) for whom I humbly pray to You to care for and protect. O God, be their guide and guardian in all their endeavors, lead them in the path of Your truth, and draw them nearer to You, so that they may lead a godly and righteous life in Your love as they do Your will in all things. Give them Your grace, and mercy so that they may be patient, hardworking, tireless, devout and charitable. Defend them against the assaults of the enemy, and grant them wisdom and strength to resist all temptation and corruption, and direct them in the way of Salvation, through the goodness of Your Son, our Savior Jesus Christ, and the prayers of His Holy Mother and the blessed saints. Amen.
Lord Jesus Christ, in Your great mercy You prayed for the forgiveness of those who crucified You, and You taught us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. Lord, I pray that You forgive those who treat me unjustly and speak out against me, and that You bless them and guide them according to Your will. Take away any bitterness I may have in my heart against them. Lord, may Your forgiveness, goodness and love be revealed in all of us, to Your praise and glory. Amen.
While we go to God in prayer seeking His answers to our troubles, I believe we should do so as is, in our actual condition, in all humility and with repentance. Having a drink or two, in my opinion, dulls our senses, makes us less receptive, less responsive, less ourselves and more someone else.
Ephesians 4
I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
I've some pretty serious differences of opinion with my wife regarding our faiths. While I'm a traditional Orthodox guy, she has Pentecostal leanings. But whatever the issues, I've realized that no amount of blood boiling and harboring grudge will enable God to work something out. Rather, prayer and more prayer helps soften us a great deal to make us absorb more of His grace.
This thread's sure flown off at a tangent.............my sincere apologies to dumdum.
God bless U guys,
R
forgive me but like this you're resorting to an idol God to comfort you rather than going to the living God for comfort.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102263#msg102263 date=1240699099]
yes, because you said you go to it to "wind down" when you should be going to God. anything that takes place of God is an idol God to us.
the_least,
What exactly is your criteria for declaring something an idol? I was always under the impression that an idol was something expressly made to pray to, usually in the form of a statue or symbol.
I presume based on the above quotes that one of your criteria is that an idol is something that a person uses to replace God, and in some instances that is a perfectly clear line of reasoning, namely when it comes to our object of reverence and worship. It's not so clear to me when it comes to more mundane things. You've mentionned that using wine as an agent for "wind[ing] down" and "comfort" is idolatry because we should be going to God for these things. Does this also mean that comfortable chairs are idols? I like to call my mother for a bunch of different reasons, but I could be going to God for all of those things; is my mother an idol? I like to read for the health of my mind and eat for the health of my body; are books and food idols?
George
* * *
anyone interested,
This is a really annoying topic (among others) for me because now, all of a sudden, scriptural teachings are not good enough. The Bible says to not drink in excess, now I find that there are a score of rules for the deaconate that nobody told me about when I was ordained one of which says not to drink any wine at all. http://www.scribd.com/doc/14644/Deacons.
My problem is not that the alcohol is a big deal, I usually average about a glass of wine every couple of weeks or so, and I haven't had any at all since reading the new instructions for the deaconate. My problem is in the administration of rules with no scriptural basis and very little logical explanation. I'm already working on the instructions given by Anba Youssef http://www.suscopts.org/deacons/deaconship/deacons_instructions.pdf. This will take enough time as is and effort for me memorize the Psalms and to internalize the actions to do them in a genuinely spiritual way. On top of that I have a number of other significant religious issues (a non-coptic Fiancee among other things). Now adding the wine thing on top of that, as insignificant as it is, is just annoying. What's next? Is coffee a sin too? I'm sorry, but I don't think it is the role of my church fathers to effect changes in my life at this intimate of a level; I think that position is reserved for God and God alone, because He alone is my master, and He is already active in my life on a very intimite level including in my consumption of alcohol. (I used to drink in excess)
Even still, the deaconate is justly in the hands of those church fathers, so maybe I ought to just stop serving. . .
George
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102261#msg102261 date=1240698776]
forgive me but like this you're resorting to an idol God to comfort you rather than going to the living God for comfort.
[quote author=the_least link=topic=7874.msg102263#msg102263 date=1240699099]
yes, because you said you go to it to "wind down" when you should be going to God. anything that takes place of God is an idol God to us.
the_least,
What exactly is your criteria for declaring something an idol? I was always under the impression that an idol was something expressly made to pray to, usually in the form of a statue or symbol.
My comment is not really on topic (at least the title question), but just on this one things you said. I have to say that I agree with this quote from "the least", at least with the second part of it.
In the OT, it's true that idols referred to stone objects of worship. Now obviously most people today don't worship such things, but many are still idolaters. Idols can include money, other people, one's own self,work, school, career, material objects like a car, jewelry. I like the way the least defined an idol as anything or anyone that takes the place of God in your life.
So what does that mean? That means that it is the center of your life. That means that it consumes your thoughts, you live your life with it in mind, and basically it's the most important thing in the world to you. Even other people can be idols. Remember Christ said "Whoever loves sister, mother, children, spouse, etc. more than Me is not worthy of Me".
Idolatry, almost most people wouldn't admit it or recognize it, is very common. I think that if there was no idolatry in your heart, then you would be fully faithful to God and never sin—which doesn't really happen (except I guess with the saints—but even they struggle). So it's something we struggle against—but ya, idolatry is something we need to beware of. It's it's more important (and be honest with yourself) to you than God, it's an idol.
That is a very good point. Putting anything or anyone in a position in our life more important than God is definitely wrong, but I still don't think it is idolatry. It is true that the secondary definition of idolatry is excess devotion to something, and this must be related to what you're saying, but it is very presumptuous to say that someone is devoted to something when you don't know them. If a person's life is centered on money or material posessions they are worldly minded and foolish in that they are neglecting the health of their own soul and they are missing out on the free gift of grace that comes from serving God above all else, but they are not idoaters.
Frankly, despite the dictionary definition, I think there is a serious danger in calling all sin idolatry, and it is precisely the point about minding your center that you brought up that brings me to my conclusion. A person can't necessarily determine their personal center by figuring out what it is they like the most. You know your center by what influences most of what you do and how you make your decisions. If all of your actions are strongly influenced by avoiding idolatry then, I'm sorry to say, I think you just may be idolatry centered.
This is precisely why I think individual sins don't necessarily need names or categories. Lying is not a sin because it is somehow idolatry; it is a sin because it is an abomination of the mechanisms of speech and communication that God gave us to communicate truth. The love of material posessions is not a sin because it is somehow idolatry; it is a sin because the entire creation belongs to God and calling anything a posession is an act of coveting those things that God, in his infinite love, allows us to enjoy.
On the other hand idolatry, defined primarily as the worship of idols, is a sin because it is idolatry. It is a sin because it violates the first commandment (as counted in the orthodox faiths) given to Moses. It is a sin because it is a direct insult to God's plan for our salvation in that He is our God and we are His people.
George