Hello all, I was just wondering if our religion says anything about marrying people from other religions... Like I know that Muslims are allowed to marry Muslim, Christian, or Jewish.
2 corinthians 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers
If your greatest love is Jesus and your spouse's greatest love is him or herself/ the new car/ you/ budda/ money then you are not both going in the same direction and will tear apart. If you are married before you convert to Christianity that's different, you're supposed to stay married and God will help you with this difficult problem. If you want less problems in your life, avoid this one, it's serious!
It is not possible for a Coptic Orthodox to marry someone from a different religion, such as Jewish, Muslim or Hindu, because the other person cannot participate in the Orthodox marriage service. Though a Coptic Orthodox person could marry in a civil service only this would mean that they would be considered not in good standing and it would generally mean that they could not receive communion.
If the aim of the Orthodox Christian marriage is to seek the grace of God to build a 'little Church' in the home, this is just not possible when one partner is not even Christian. As has been said, this is a difficult enough challenge when one partner in an existing marriage becomes Orthodox, but as a choice by an Orthodox, I mean to choose to marry someone who is not Christian, it is just pastorally a non-starter and the Church does all it can to warn against it.
[quote author=changethechannel link=topic=7666.msg100441#msg100441 date=1235363159] Hello all, I was just wondering if our religion says anything about marrying people from other religions... Like I know that Muslims are allowed to marry Muslim, Christian, or Jewish.
Just a small correction, it's only the men who are allowed to marry Christian or Jewish women, Muslim women however have to marry Muslim men...
and to get back to your question, regardless of the problems the last two posters pointed toward, what about children?? how would one raise them? baptize them?
Marrying a christian from a different denomination isn't allowed in our church (unless they are oriental orthodox or in some cases greek orthodox ..), which is why some convert to catholicism for example, because many issues would arise about communion, baptism of children, so imagine the difficulties if the other person isn't even christian at all....
There are many faults in this article... so I don't know how trustworthy it is, the Pope can't have excommunicated people for claiming they were in direct contact with God! We all are supposed to be in direct contact with God!!!
Hey changethechannel, thanks for asking a question that is making me post a reply after quite a while. When we look at marriage it is a union of a husband and a wife with family as their goal. Family is also referred as ‘a small church’. So, if one is to marry a Muslim, Buddhist, etc are they to start ‘a small church’ or a ‘small mosque-church’ or what? Another point that should be noticed is the oneness of a husband and wife. Scripture says “… a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.” Genesis 2:24. What is the source of this oneness? Is it the love the two have? Then what is their source of love? The source of this oneness as all onenesses is Christ!!! Ephesians 4: 3 – 6 Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace. 4 For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all. Therefore it would not make any sense trying to be one with someone who doesn’t share the only thing that can really make you one that is CHRIST. Allow me to take a little tangent here and get into inter-denominational marriages. This is a very broad topic by itself. To start with it is hard to reach upon an agreement as to which religions can be considered as Christian denomination. For many main stream Christians Mormon, Jehovah witness, and others are not really Christians. Therefore, marriage with one of the followers will fall under the umbrella of inter-religion marriage and not inter-denominational marriages. Even when we are looking at marriage among main stream Christians (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, others which I might have forgotten) it is hard to maintain a health marriage. First, as much as we have a lot in common we can’t just shun our enormous differences. As Godislove260 mentioned how you would deal with the issues of baptism, communion, which church to go to, etc. These are burdens that will definitely have a negative impact on ones spiritual life. There are cases where inter-denominational marriages seem to work. This is usually the case when both, the husband and wife are not really serious about their spiritual life. If both don’t go to church, there will be no argument which church to go to. Say even one marries an Oriental Orthodox; there will still be some struggle. Usually one of the couples will be zealous and the other lax. Concerning this we my remember St. Paul’s advice “Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. Romans 14:1. This really easy said than done. Given these and other reasons before deciding to get married one should truly contemplate on 1 Corinthians 7:1 “…Yes, it is good to live a celibate life.” Let me finish by mentioning a common bummer to many. We say “I will convert her/him and then marry her/him. Is it not noble to evangelize? ” :(:(:( P.S. Please ask your Abouna for advice before you have advanced in a relationship not at the eve of your wedding. In Christ Theophilus
my husband is protestant. i was too when we married and gained his approval before joining the coptic church. we are both very passionate about our faith and discuss theology nearly every day. because we love and accept each other and accept that it is possible to interpret certain passages of scripture in different ways, we do not fall out. we have both modified the 'minor' points of our beliefs over the many years of our marriage and i think we are more mature as a result of our deep searching. by 'minor' i mean that we hold the same 'major' beliefs (full divinity, death, resurrection, virgin birth of our saviour, man's need for salvation and a combination of faith and good works to build spiritual life). i recommend to anyone who finds themself married to a Christian (orthodox, catholic, protestant) from a different church to seek to deepen their spiritual life, so that the Holy Spirit will fill them and give them the grace to have meaningful loving discussions with their spouse. visit each others churches and take every opportunity to share your faith with non-believers. as theophilus1 said, many people do not take up this challenge. this leads to a failure to share the beautiful light of Jesus with those who are perishing. DO NOT FAIL TO TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE!
Mabsoota, I admire the fact that you and your husband have been able to make this work, but you must know that your situation is very rare...
Also when you got married you both were part of the same denomination, I think we're talking about people who come from different denominations/religions to start with..
When you say never fail to take up the challenge, it seems as if you're encouraging inter-denominational marriage, but I'm quite sure our church highly discourages it..
For it might work with you, but fail with the 99 other couples who tried...
I don't know whether you have children or not, but that would be a difficult issue also, where would one raise them, baptize them (if there is any baptizm at all..), etc.
And let's say a copt wants to marry a protestant? One sees it as a holy sacrament, the other doesn't (or not all at least..), one wants to marry in the coptic church, the other in a protestant church... etc. the problems will arise right from the start...
Please don't get me wrong, I love all christians, but when it comes to marriage, there are many things to consider..
I think the secret to Mabsoota being Mabsoota (excuse the pun) is that she married someone who was exactly like her in her faith and they both grew at the same time and decided to become orthodox.
I've seen this story 100's of times. Protestants always decide to become Orthodox.
I knew many girls who were protestant, before getting married, and I can tell you, they just saw us as heretics worshipping icons. Unless you prayed in tongues, you were not saved. That's how they saw it.
When two people do not share the same faith - no matter how close each is to God, i think there will only be problems. I know a Coptic who married a Catholic, and it was hard. Really hard.
Hi, Godislove260, i appreciate your comments, i am not encouraging interdenominational marriage, but i want to say that if you are married to/ about to be married to someone from a different denomination you must NOT use this an excuse for not spreading the Christian faith. and if you have been using something like this an excuse for not spreading the faith, this is the chance for you to think more seriously about it and draw near to God. I recommend the Bible and the agpeya as good reading to start with. as for baptism, the mixed couples i know baptised their children in the coptic church. one of the mixed couples isn't even really mixed anymore as the Catholic wife has joined the coptic church. so what i really mean to say is that if you are in a mixed Christian marriage (note, i don't say 'considering it in 10 years' time'), if your faith is real you will have a lot of grace and a desire to sacrifice your own needs in order to honour God, and that may well make you stronger as a couple. QT, thanks for the pun ;) for the non-arabic speakers among us, mabsoota means 'happy', we will pray for your coptic/catholic friends.
Ok mabsoota, I'm sorry, forgive me, I must have misunderstood you
but of course, I see your point now (although I still don't know about the 'about to be married to someone from a different denomination' part) but I shall leave the matter to more learnt members of the group to comment
I apologise in advance for the tangent I'm about to go on, but I promise it will be relevant.
I've been surprised time and time again at the confusion between the words Coptic and Egyptian. I'm Coptic, and I've been Coptic for about 26 years (since I was five). I've put a great deal of time and effort into learning everything I can about OUR tradition, from how to Coptic paintings are "written", to tuqs, to the symbolism of the liturgy, etc. I'm by no means an expert on anything; I'm still working on the basics, but the point is that I'm actively working on it, and I love every minute of it.
What frustrates me is that no matter what I do, I'm always the foreigner. I've been told point blank that I don't belong in the "Egyptian" Church (I was about twelve at the time). Even a good number of times that someone has tried to be nice to me it involves sentiments such as "oh have you eaten that before?!? You really like our food?!?" Yes, I've eaten my fair share of filafel, babaganoush, shawarma (sorry I shouldn't talk about that during lent), and yes I know about 150 million ways of making fool medames and I've lived on it for *oh*... about 55 days at a time.
Don't get me wrong; I've had friends in the church, but never anything close enough to build a future on. The good news is that even a fool like me can be wise enough to keep my faith in God and not worry about His people. Eventually God brought me the woman who is now my fiance'e. It should be no surprise that she is not Egyptian, and not Coptic. It should also be no surprise, that I have no intention of forcing her to go to our church, If she wants to come she can come. My plan is that we will both keep faith in God, and He will guide our steps. If God choses to make us a multidenominational household, (though I think that's unlikely), so be it. My children will be taught to love God, to study his word, and they will be taught the subtle differences in our faiths, and they will decide for themselves. If God makes us a Coptic household, I hope he also makes it so that my kids won't have to hear the same rhetoric that I've had to listen to for not having pretty olive skin, but otherwise the plan is the same; My children will be taught to love God, to study his word.
I just want to say that I didnt like the catholic at all until i found myself literally obliged to go. After more than 5 years attending, and being "part of it", 2 things happened:
a) I loved the Catholic Church more. b) I loved the Orthodox faith more than the catholic. In fact, the catholic church really helped me appreciate my Church more. When you look at what catholics love about their church and their faith, you can only feel proud you are Orthodox as we have what they are losing.
But had I married a catholic before my experience in the catholic church, it would never have worked out. (i'd have felt I'm living with heretics!) But if I had married a catholic AFTER i entered the catholic church, then it would have only worked out for ONE reason: I'd have probably left the Orthodox church (but willingly).
As it turned out, I havent.
I don't see myself seeing them as heretics at all now. This is a good thing as I was so extreme Orthodox before, that it stopped me from enjoying christian fellowship over small issues. The word heretic is so strong and cruel sometimes. When I had this word in my head, it stopped me from enjoying what turned out to be extremely beneficial for me. So - I don't like to use this term. They are just different in a few things. The word "heretic" is really hurtful. We don't like it when the Greek Orthodox churches use this when they describe us, and I can tell you, the catholics don't like it either when we use this against them.
But whilst I was amongst catholics; I noticed a few things:
The catholics really love Orthodoxy. I mean, they find our Church quite interesting, especially our saints and theology. Secondly, there are catholics who - if you considered them as potential husbands or wives fall into two types: Type 1: where they see us as heretics, and type 2: where they see themselves as non-Orthodox.
If you married someone who is type-2 - then this would be much better.
But there's ONE thing i cannot deny. I have NEVER met a protestant who is type-2. I mean, an Orthodox discussing his faith with a Catholic results in a discussion of similarities and commonality. However, when disucussing it Protestants, it just ends up as an argument. Guaranteed.
If a protestant decides to become enlightened and explore orthodoxy, then this is great.. yet you cannot discuss anything with them UNLESS they are convinced themselves.
If a protestant is adament in his or her faith, forget it... there's no discussion. If you pray together, you will not be able to ask for the intercessions of Saint Mary nor any of the saints. If you read the Bible together, they will insist that you are saved by faith only. No matter what you say. But what is strange is that in marital life, you are meant to be living the Word of God with your wife. How can you do this if the application of it is not clear or different for both of u.
In summary, the main problem with marrying a protestant (if you are Orthodox) is that rather than just living and enjoying the Word of God, it ends up as just a challenge to teach the other your perspective or ideologies from what you believe is correct. You are no longer sharing the Bible, but rather teaching each other. What kind of miserable marriage is that?
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7666.msg100508#msg100508 date=1235534582] I apologise in advance for the tangent I'm about to go on, but I promise it will be relevant.
I've been surprised time and time again at the confusion between the words Coptic and Egyptian. I'm Coptic, and I've been Coptic for about 26 years (since I was five). I've put a great deal of time and effort into learning everything I can about OUR tradition, from how to Coptic paintings are "written", to tuqs, to the symbolism of the liturgy, etc. I'm by no means an expert on anything; I'm still working on the basics, but the point is that I'm actively working on it, and I love every minute of it.
What frustrates me is that no matter what I do, I'm always the foreigner. I've been told point blank that I don't belong in the "Egyptian" Church (I was about twelve at the time). Even a good number of times that someone has tried to be nice to me it involves sentiments such as "oh have you eaten that before?!? You really like our food?!?" Yes, I've eaten my fair share of filafel, babaganoush, shawarma (sorry I shouldn't talk about that during lent), and yes I know about 150 million ways of making fool medames and I've lived on it for *oh*... about 55 days at a time.
Don't get me wrong; I've had friends in the church, but never anything close enough to build a future on. The good news is that even a fool like me can be wise enough to keep my faith in God and not worry about His people. Eventually God brought me the woman who is now my fiance'e. It should be no surprise that she is not Egyptian, and not Coptic. It should also be no surprise, that I have no intention of forcing her to go to our church, If she wants to come she can come. My plan is that we will both keep faith in God, and He will guide our steps. If God choses to make us a multidenominational household, (though I think that's unlikely), so be it. My children will be taught to love God, to study his word, and they will be taught the subtle differences in our faiths, and they will decide for themselves. If God makes us a Coptic household, I hope he also makes it so that my kids won't have to hear the same rhetoric that I've had to listen to for not having pretty olive skin, but otherwise the plan is the same; My children will be taught to love God, to study his word.
George
George actually raises a point that is quite common in countries of immigration (Canada/Australia/America) etc: The Coptic Church in the diaspora does seem to have a problem with this. Not only would people like George suffer, but also anyone who is Coptic and wants to pray. The Church becomes an "Egyptian social" club, and baptism in it doesnt qualify you for entry. What qualifies you is if you can speak Arabic and love Egypt.
The only thing missing in many MANY Churches is that the priest didnt put a picture of the President of Egypt in the Church Hall, nor in the Church itself. He might as well.
I have to admit that this problem is not so much in the UK. In England, a lot of the youth were born here. They are not really immigrants; and the UK is not a country of immigration. Those that go to Church go to pray. That's it. The proof is in the attitude of the sunday schools. They have really strong links with other denominations (catholic and protestant). I've been around the world, and the church that impresses me the most is that in the UK. To actually find friends there, your arabic has to be so broken and your love for Orthodoxy has to be more than your love for Egypt. If that's the case, you'd have found 1000's of friends.
I'd be very surprised if you were from the UK still. I know it can be quite hurtful when people make you feel that you are not orthodox because you do not fit the typical pedigree of a Coptic person (Egyptian Christian Orthodox Immigrant). I've seen many people leave the Church because of this. Now, the UK churches are as guilty of this as Any other church, but to a MUCH lesser extent.
This is one reason why I loved the catholic church of France. Those that go there don't go to speak French nor go to get some French culture in them. They go to worship and have fellowship - Christian Fellowship. The atmosphere is MUCh different than ANY Coptic Church. I feel in the Coptic church what unites us is Arabic and Arabic traditions. I hate that. I hate calling people who I don't know "Auntie and Uncle". I hate not being able to kiss one another a holy kiss during the mass with only men. What if I want to make peace with a girl if we argued? What if I want to reconcile with her?? You cannot do this. This is too much.
There are lot of Arabic traditions in our Church's culture that shouldn't be there. I'm not saying it is in the holy liturgy, but it is in the culture of the Church, and I find it disruptive to the overall peace and spirit of prayer that one has as a result of regular worship.
GArgiriadis, I'm very sorry to hear what you've been through as a non-Egyptian coptic.. I used to wonder how could it be that someone who was born and raised in Europe can accept being Coptic Orthodox? (with all things that come with it..) then I realized there are two obstacles a person like that would have to handle. Firstly, Orthodoxy itself, which, compared to many other denominations could be looked upon as: too strict, oldfashioned, too traditional, etc. But when it comes to Coptic Churches, there is a second obstacle, the Egyptian culture.. I have this habit of trying to put myself in other people's positions to try to understand what they go through and how they see things, and when I think as a European, then I can completely imagine finding many 'irreconciable differences' between my (supposed) culture (European, Western, etc.) and the Egyptian one...
There are several reasons for the second obstacle, which might not be as present in other Orthodox churches as in the Coptic one: Copts have only started immigrating in big numbers in the second half of the last century, which is pretty recent, so many Copts in immigration are first generation or second generation with strong bonds to Egypt. Secondly, Egyptians, or at least many of them (used to be/are) very patriottic. Thirdly, in the land of immigration, one gets homesick, and tends to look for people who can give him the feeling of being 'home' more.
Now all the above reasons are not justifications for what happened to you, but they are true still. These are social factors. But they SHOULDN'T have anything to do with church, meaning as someone already mentioned, Egyptian sentiments should not be the reason why people go to church... The reason is because we are united in faith, Coptic Orthodox faith, and thus no differentiation whatsoever should be made between Egyptians and non-Egyptians.
However, there is an understandibly in my opinin, the notion of an unbreakable bond between the Coptic Orthodox church and the country of Egypt. Coptic is often used interchangeably with Egyptian, because simply they are synonims. Arabic culture, I must admit, had its bad effects on the church, the mentality of the church leaders, the members who were all (most of them at least) raised in an arabic-speaking, culturally arab atmosphere. But I wouldn't say all the effects are bad, we can ask ourselves the following: would the Coptic Church be what it is today if it hadn't been in Egypt? Not just the faith, but the monastic movement, the simplicity, the hymns, etc. If the Coptic Church for instance had been founded in Europe, and had been through the same things the Catholic church had been through, it would have been different, would it have kept the faith, would it have been as spiritual as it is now... There are many values and traditions that can be found in the Arabo-Egyptian culture that I appreciate a lot and that aren't necessarily present in Western culture. So we can't say that Arabic culture purely had a bad effect on the Coptic Church.
I am proud of being both Coptic Orthodox and Egyptian, but I don't see the two as two sides of the same coin. Religion is something and patriottism is something else and the two shouldn't interfere with eachother. I could easily have been one without the other. So I do feel all patriottic Egyptians are Egyptians (whether they are Coptic or Muslims) and the same goes for the church, I feel all Copts are Copts, assuming the figurative use of the word Copt being a member of the Coptic Orthodox church and not the litteral meaning being a native Egyptian (whether they are Egyptian or not-Egyptian) and it's every Copt's duty to make sure that in church, faith is what bonds us and not our origin...it is faith we chose that makes us Coptic Orthodox and not our nationality which we didn't choose and had no control ofThere is no Egyptian or non-Egyptian, all are one in Christ
Sorry for the long post Have a blessed Lent Please pray for my weakness
PS as much as I might not feel comfortable with it (since I love both the Coptic and the Arabic language), liturgy in the land of immigration should be performed in the language that is used in that country, or at least some liturgies, depending on the congregation... I mean for me I prefer the 'classic Egyptian' liturgy which combines arabic and coptic, but these languages have nothing to do with the faith and should not be an obstacle to non-Egyptians wanting to join the church because of their faith in Coptic Orthodoxy
Thanks Godislove260 and QT. It's comforting to know that in Europe our faith has matured to the point of defining an Orthodox person based on their belief and practice, and not ther nationality. You've refreshed my hope that we will see that in the US as well.
[quote author=GArgiriadis link=topic=7666.msg100532#msg100532 date=1235587146] Thanks Godislove260 and QT. It's comforting to know that in Europe our faith has matured to the point of defining an Orthodox person based on their belief and practice, and not ther nationality. You've refreshed my hope that we will see that in the US as well.
George
George,
It is your lucky day: we have with us on Tasbeha.org a priest from the British Orthodox Church. This is the creme de la creme of Orthodoxy. They have the Coptic Orthodox faith, without the Egyptian culture.
i also want to add my support for george, our church (uk) will soon be doing what Godislove260 suggests and having a mass purely in english and somewhat shorter, especially for the non-orthodox english people who have expressed an interest. we are making an effort to have a positive impact on the english community. i would like to add this was planned without me suggesting it! i am in a minority of 2 english people. (we also have some eritreans but their arabic is better). i have experienced what QT did, no problems integrating in church, so maybe the problem is less in the uk. i have to confess i like calling everyone auntie and uncle though, maybe because i never knew my extended family who were all very grumpy. i have also found a 'mum' and 'dad', maybe u should visit my church. there are enough 'mum's and 'dad's to go round! ;) so i hope, george, with our support, you can make a positive change to your church and maybe others in the usa to show them how to reach out to those around them. may God give us His grace.
This may be a little rare among non-Egyptian Copts, but I also kind of prefer a more Arabic-Coptic Liturgy, mainly for the hymns and responses. I still have to follow along in the book to understand Abouna's parts, so it is kind of nice (for me) when some of that is in English. On the other hand we are usually blessed to have some more elderly people in the church who often have trouble with understanding Abouna if he prays in English and whose eyes aren't as young as mine. Also, of the Coptic priests I've known (I think about ten) and have met (I have no idea how many . . . a hundred), all of them were native Arabic speakers, and it seems that when they give the Liturgy in English they have to put a good measure of concentration into reading, whereas when they do it in Arabic they are more relaxed and are more efficiently praying the Liturgy.
As far as the hymns and responses go, I think it's beautiful that we picked up a few languages along the way. In the first few centuries of the Coptic Church we added a few Copticized (is that a word?) Greek hymns (Agios, Omonogenees, Christos Anesti) and most of the short responses. From the sixth (?) century on we added a great number of Arabic hymns...
Tangent --> Does anyone disagree that the best few minutes of the year starts with "Ya kul asefuf" and goes through "Christos Anesti". It may be just me but I think I would cry if anyone suggested disturbing those few minutes by changing anything. Or worse, I might not cry during those few minutes.
Ok, back to the topic --> I love the Coptic church as-is, the one I've grown up in. The only thing I would like to see different is more realization that you don't need the ethnicity to love everything about the church (including its ethnicity and culture).
It is saddening to hear about all this and even more saddening to hear about 'phyletism' among the Copts whom I had heard so many good things about. Recently I attended some talks given by Fr Tadros Malaty in London. He was clear that there should be more English in services. Later I attended a Coptic service that was supposedly in English. Many older people looked, well, fed up with it although one lady was valiantly raising her voice above all others and in English. You have a long way to go but none of the other Orthodox churches are much better. Most Greek churches don't have any English (except the Symbol of Faith) and my Russian church is about 50/50 for the liturgy although the Hours are in Slavonic. And what about the BOC? That isn't really an option in the metropolis yet . So it seems that the Copts and Russians are best placed to reach out to the British by having a liturgy in English frequently. May God bless them.
[quote author=aidan link=topic=7666.msg100538#msg100538 date=1235591473] It is saddening to hear about all this and even more saddening to hear about 'phyletism' among the Copts whom I had heard so many good things about. Recently I attended some talks given by Fr Tadros Malaty in London. He was clear that there should be more English in services. Later I attended a Coptic service that was supposedly in English. Many older people looked, well, fed up with it although one lady was valiantly raising her voice above all others and in English. You have a long way to go but none of the other Orthodox churches are much better. Most Greek churches don't have any English (except the Symbol of Faith) and my Russian church is about 50/50 for the liturgy although the Hours are in Slavonic. And what about the BOC? That isn't really an option in the metropolis yet . So it seems that the Copts and Russians are best placed to reach out to the British by having a liturgy in English frequently. May God bless them.
The number of non-Egyptian or non-arabic speaking youth in the Coptic Diaspora must be in the UK. I think that is why they are looking at doing the mass in English more often. It is a tad bit unfair for the older generation to frown upon this. They must be telling themselves "Those darn agnabies!! They should learn Arabic!!".
Yes, learning arabic is good, even swahili, but I personally am fed up of listening to a sermon in Arabic and only understanding 70 to 80% of it. If abouna uses ONE word in arabic that I don't know, then it just ruins the entire meaning for me.
Is it ANY wonder why our youth go to Kensington Temple, or Holy Trinity Brompton (HTB)?? They spend their entire time singing Coptic/Arabic hymns that have no meaning to them.
At first, I must admit, I didnt understand why they were not happy with the Coptic/Arabic ratio of hymns in our Church and prayers! But now I see. If the liturgy in our Church lasts 2 hours, then out of that 2 hours, what percentage of what is being prayed/sung/read is actually understood??
I used to be of the opinion that if there's anything you do not understand just get the kholagy and read the translation. But there are MAJOR problems with this:
a) The translation books (Kholagies) in English are ALWAYS missing something. If the priest wants to switch to gregorian or to the Kirolos liturgy, you're just totally messedup.
b) More importantly, whilst you are reading the english translation, you are not completely praying. You are reading. I mean, you in a state of education, like at school. Your mind is focused on understanding the words rather than praying the words.
It is well known that people usually pray the "our Father.. " in their native tongues. Otherwise, they cannot really pray.
Then, to make matters worse, we have a large numbers of growing Coptic-die-hards who do not understand the word "Compromise" when singing hymns: it either has to be in Coptic, or nothing at all.
And then, above all that, we have the egyptian-coptic culture in our Church that has proven more damaging than edifying. The cultural laws placed on us within the Church does in no way help to nurture a Christian spirit of fellowship within the Church. Rather than what unites us as being our love for Christ, it clearly becomes our love for our Culture. In fact, this attitude does not help Copts at all. Rather than integrate and feel you are a citizen of your country of immigration, you become more inclined to feel that you are actually still an egyptian. After attending a Coptic Church from an early age, I had the impression I already knew what Egypt was like without ever having been there. My arabic improved even from just listening to people in the Church.
The greeks CLAIM to have this problem with language: that their mass is in Greek and the youth don't speak that much greek.. but Greek as a language is alive. It is not redundant. We cannot compare their problem with ours. The greek orthodox youth seem to complain that there is too much culture and less spirituality in their Church, but I doubt this has anything to do with our problems. Each problem is unique.
I think however, one thing we MUST learn from the Catholic Church is a few things introduced in Vatican II that were not that bad: namely having a mass that was in the native language of that country, and NOT in latin. The French Catholic mass in France is the same yet different slightly than that in the UK, or the Irish Catholic Church. The hymns are unique to the French language, the liturgy is in the French language, and the sermons are in the French language. This only results in the focus of the entire Church on prayer. There nothing done or said that is haphazard to the understanding of the worshipper. The clergy themselves, being native French, can communicate with native French worshippers. We do not have this. We have priests who have never grown up in the UK talking to kids who have NO idea what life was like in Egypt?? How can that be?
I think there must be a time when the CoC decides on its faith. The CoC in Egypt can enjoy the Coptic mass in Arabic, and Coptic. LUKCY THEM! However, those in France or Spain need to have the hymns written for their langauges. It is ABSOLUTELY incomprehensible translating the fasting hymn for the communion ("blessed is he who fasts and pray and gives to the poor") in French. YOU CANNOT understand it.
It is totally pointless. The song was in Arabic, and is now translated in French. When a child growing up in such environment listens to such music, no doubt he'll feel that in order to be COMPLETELY saved one must learn Arabic. This is not right. Our faith is beyond culture and language.
And that part is true: we can only understand such hymns if we had knowledge of the hymn in arabic from the beginning.
The CoC must make hymns that are created for the language of the location.
The French catholic hymn: "crier de joie" is brilliant, but the UK catholics have their own version. The words are different, but the meaning is the same.
Unless the Church decides to actually respect the fact that the population in the diaspora are NOT obliged to learn Coptic and Arabic in order to be saved, they will find themselves losing many people to either other orthodox churches, or to other denominations.
Comments
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers
If your greatest love is Jesus and your spouse's greatest love is him or herself/ the new car/ you/ budda/ money then you are not both going in the same direction and will tear apart. If you are married before you convert to Christianity that's different, you're supposed to stay married and God will help you with this difficult problem.
If you want less problems in your life, avoid this one, it's serious!
If the aim of the Orthodox Christian marriage is to seek the grace of God to build a 'little Church' in the home, this is just not possible when one partner is not even Christian. As has been said, this is a difficult enough challenge when one partner in an existing marriage becomes Orthodox, but as a choice by an Orthodox, I mean to choose to marry someone who is not Christian, it is just pastorally a non-starter and the Church does all it can to warn against it.
In Christ
Father Peter
Hello all,
I was just wondering if our religion says anything about marrying people from other religions... Like I know that Muslims are allowed to marry Muslim, Christian, or Jewish.
Just a small correction, it's only the men who are allowed to marry Christian or Jewish women, Muslim women however have to marry Muslim men...
and to get back to your question, regardless of the problems the last two posters pointed toward, what about children?? how would one raise them? baptize them?
Marrying a christian from a different denomination isn't allowed in our church (unless they are oriental orthodox or in some cases greek orthodox ..), which is why some convert to catholicism for example, because many issues would arise about communion, baptism of children, so imagine the difficulties if the other person isn't even christian at all....
God bless
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=10757&sec=19&cont=3
I certainly hope this article is genuine, because my fiance'e isn't Coptic.
George
God bless
Another point that should be noticed is the oneness of a husband and wife. Scripture says “… a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.” Genesis 2:24. What is the source of this oneness? Is it the love the two have? Then what is their source of love? The source of this oneness as all onenesses is Christ!!!
Ephesians 4: 3 – 6
Make every effort to keep yourselves united in the Spirit, binding yourselves together with peace. 4 For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all.
Therefore it would not make any sense trying to be one with someone who doesn’t share the only thing that can really make you one that is CHRIST.
Allow me to take a little tangent here and get into inter-denominational marriages. This is a very broad topic by itself. To start with it is hard to reach upon an agreement as to which religions can be considered as Christian denomination. For many main stream Christians Mormon, Jehovah witness, and others are not really Christians. Therefore, marriage with one of the followers will fall under the umbrella of inter-religion marriage and not inter-denominational marriages.
Even when we are looking at marriage among main stream Christians (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, others which I might have forgotten) it is hard to maintain a health marriage. First, as much as we have a lot in common we can’t just shun our enormous differences. As Godislove260 mentioned how you would deal with the issues of baptism, communion, which church to go to, etc. These are burdens that will definitely have a negative impact on ones spiritual life. There are cases where inter-denominational marriages seem to work. This is usually the case when both, the husband and wife are not really serious about their spiritual life. If both don’t go to church, there will be no argument which church to go to.
Say even one marries an Oriental Orthodox; there will still be some struggle. Usually one of the couples will be zealous and the other lax. Concerning this we my remember St. Paul’s advice “Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. Romans 14:1. This really easy said than done.
Given these and other reasons before deciding to get married one should truly contemplate on 1 Corinthians 7:1 “…Yes, it is good to live a celibate life.”
Let me finish by mentioning a common bummer to many. We say “I will convert her/him and then marry her/him. Is it not noble to evangelize? ” :( :( :(
P.S. Please ask your Abouna for advice before you have advanced in a relationship not at the eve of your wedding.
In Christ
Theophilus
we are both very passionate about our faith and discuss theology nearly every day.
because we love and accept each other and accept that it is possible to interpret certain passages of scripture in different ways, we do not fall out.
we have both modified the 'minor' points of our beliefs over the many years of our marriage and i think we are more mature as a result of our deep searching.
by 'minor' i mean that we hold the same 'major' beliefs (full divinity, death, resurrection, virgin birth of our saviour, man's need for salvation and a combination of faith and good works to build spiritual life).
i recommend to anyone who finds themself married to a Christian (orthodox, catholic, protestant) from a different church to seek to deepen their spiritual life, so that the Holy Spirit will fill them and give them the grace to have meaningful loving discussions with their spouse. visit each others churches and take every opportunity to share your faith with non-believers.
as theophilus1 said, many people do not take up this challenge. this leads to a failure to share the beautiful light of Jesus with those who are perishing.
DO NOT FAIL TO TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE!
Also when you got married you both were part of the same denomination, I think we're talking about people who come from different denominations/religions to start with..
When you say never fail to take up the challenge, it seems as if you're encouraging inter-denominational marriage, but I'm quite sure our church highly discourages it..
For it might work with you, but fail with the 99 other couples who tried...
I don't know whether you have children or not, but that would be a difficult issue also, where would one raise them, baptize them (if there is any baptizm at all..), etc.
And let's say a copt wants to marry a protestant? One sees it as a holy sacrament, the other doesn't (or not all at least..), one wants to marry in the coptic church, the other in a protestant church... etc. the problems will arise right from the start...
Please don't get me wrong,
I love all christians, but when it comes to marriage, there are many things to consider..
Please pray for my weakness
God bless
I've seen this story 100's of times. Protestants always decide to become Orthodox.
I knew many girls who were protestant, before getting married, and I can tell you, they just saw us as heretics worshipping icons. Unless you prayed in tongues, you were not saved. That's how they saw it.
When two people do not share the same faith - no matter how close each is to God, i think there will only be problems. I know a Coptic who married a Catholic, and it was hard. Really hard.
i appreciate your comments, i am not encouraging interdenominational marriage, but i want to say that if you are married to/ about to be married to someone from a different denomination you must NOT use this an excuse for not spreading the Christian faith. and if you have been using something like this an excuse for not spreading the faith, this is the chance for you to think more seriously about it and draw near to God.
I recommend the Bible and the agpeya as good reading to start with. as for baptism, the mixed couples i know baptised their children in the coptic church. one of the mixed couples isn't even really mixed anymore as the Catholic wife has joined the coptic church.
so what i really mean to say is that if you are in a mixed Christian marriage (note, i don't say 'considering it in 10 years' time'), if your faith is real you will have a lot of grace and a desire to sacrifice your own needs in order to honour God, and that may well make you stronger as a couple.
QT, thanks for the pun ;) for the non-arabic speakers among us, mabsoota means 'happy', we will pray for your coptic/catholic friends.
but of course, I see your point now (although I still don't know about the 'about to be married to someone from a different denomination' part) but I shall leave the matter to more learnt members of the group to comment
Have a blessed Lent
Please pray for my weakness
I've been surprised time and time again at the confusion between the words Coptic and Egyptian. I'm Coptic, and I've been Coptic for about 26 years (since I was five). I've put a great deal of time and effort into learning everything I can about OUR tradition, from how to Coptic paintings are "written", to tuqs, to the symbolism of the liturgy, etc. I'm by no means an expert on anything; I'm still working on the basics, but the point is that I'm actively working on it, and I love every minute of it.
What frustrates me is that no matter what I do, I'm always the foreigner. I've been told point blank that I don't belong in the "Egyptian" Church (I was about twelve at the time). Even a good number of times that someone has tried to be nice to me it involves sentiments such as "oh have you eaten that before?!? You really like our food?!?" Yes, I've eaten my fair share of filafel, babaganoush, shawarma (sorry I shouldn't talk about that during lent), and yes I know about 150 million ways of making fool medames and I've lived on it for *oh*... about 55 days at a time.
Don't get me wrong; I've had friends in the church, but never anything close enough to build a future on. The good news is that even a fool like me can be wise enough to keep my faith in God and not worry about His people. Eventually God brought me the woman who is now my fiance'e. It should be no surprise that she is not Egyptian, and not Coptic. It should also be no surprise, that I have no intention of forcing her to go to our church, If she wants to come she can come. My plan is that we will both keep faith in God, and He will guide our steps. If God choses to make us a multidenominational household, (though I think that's unlikely), so be it. My children will be taught to love God, to study his word, and they will be taught the subtle differences in our faiths, and they will decide for themselves. If God makes us a Coptic household, I hope he also makes it so that my kids won't have to hear the same rhetoric that I've had to listen to for not having pretty olive skin, but otherwise the plan is the same; My children will be taught to love God, to study his word.
George
a) I loved the Catholic Church more.
b) I loved the Orthodox faith more than the catholic. In fact, the catholic church really helped me appreciate my Church more. When you look at what catholics love about their church and their faith, you can only feel proud you are Orthodox as we have what they are losing.
But had I married a catholic before my experience in the catholic church, it would never have worked out. (i'd have felt I'm living with heretics!) But if I had married a catholic AFTER i entered the catholic church, then it would have only worked out for ONE reason: I'd have probably left the Orthodox church (but willingly).
As it turned out, I havent.
I don't see myself seeing them as heretics at all now. This is a good thing as I was so extreme Orthodox before, that it stopped me from enjoying christian fellowship over small issues. The word heretic is so strong and cruel sometimes. When I had this word in my head, it stopped me from enjoying what turned out to be extremely beneficial for me. So - I don't like to use this term. They are just different in a few things. The word "heretic" is really hurtful. We don't like it when the Greek Orthodox churches use this when they describe us, and I can tell you, the catholics don't like it either when we use this against them.
But whilst I was amongst catholics; I noticed a few things:
The catholics really love Orthodoxy. I mean, they find our Church quite interesting, especially our saints and theology. Secondly, there are catholics who - if you considered them as potential husbands or wives fall into two types: Type 1: where they see us as heretics, and type 2: where they see themselves as non-Orthodox.
If you married someone who is type-2 - then this would be much better.
But there's ONE thing i cannot deny. I have NEVER met a protestant who is type-2. I mean, an Orthodox discussing his faith with a Catholic results in a discussion of similarities and commonality. However, when disucussing it Protestants, it just ends up as an argument. Guaranteed.
If a protestant decides to become enlightened and explore orthodoxy, then this is great.. yet you cannot discuss anything with them UNLESS they are convinced themselves.
If a protestant is adament in his or her faith, forget it... there's no discussion. If you pray together, you will not be able to ask for the intercessions of Saint Mary nor any of the saints. If you read the Bible together, they will insist that you are saved by faith only. No matter what you say. But what is strange is that in marital life, you are meant to be living the Word of God with your wife. How can you do this if the application of it is not clear or different for both of u.
In summary, the main problem with marrying a protestant (if you are Orthodox) is that rather than just living and enjoying the Word of God, it ends up as just a challenge to teach the other your perspective or ideologies from what you believe is correct. You are no longer sharing the Bible, but rather teaching each other. What kind of miserable marriage is that?
I apologise in advance for the tangent I'm about to go on, but I promise it will be relevant.
I've been surprised time and time again at the confusion between the words Coptic and Egyptian. I'm Coptic, and I've been Coptic for about 26 years (since I was five). I've put a great deal of time and effort into learning everything I can about OUR tradition, from how to Coptic paintings are "written", to tuqs, to the symbolism of the liturgy, etc. I'm by no means an expert on anything; I'm still working on the basics, but the point is that I'm actively working on it, and I love every minute of it.
What frustrates me is that no matter what I do, I'm always the foreigner. I've been told point blank that I don't belong in the "Egyptian" Church (I was about twelve at the time). Even a good number of times that someone has tried to be nice to me it involves sentiments such as "oh have you eaten that before?!? You really like our food?!?" Yes, I've eaten my fair share of filafel, babaganoush, shawarma (sorry I shouldn't talk about that during lent), and yes I know about 150 million ways of making fool medames and I've lived on it for *oh*... about 55 days at a time.
Don't get me wrong; I've had friends in the church, but never anything close enough to build a future on. The good news is that even a fool like me can be wise enough to keep my faith in God and not worry about His people. Eventually God brought me the woman who is now my fiance'e. It should be no surprise that she is not Egyptian, and not Coptic. It should also be no surprise, that I have no intention of forcing her to go to our church, If she wants to come she can come. My plan is that we will both keep faith in God, and He will guide our steps. If God choses to make us a multidenominational household, (though I think that's unlikely), so be it. My children will be taught to love God, to study his word, and they will be taught the subtle differences in our faiths, and they will decide for themselves. If God makes us a Coptic household, I hope he also makes it so that my kids won't have to hear the same rhetoric that I've had to listen to for not having pretty olive skin, but otherwise the plan is the same; My children will be taught to love God, to study his word.
George
George actually raises a point that is quite common in countries of immigration (Canada/Australia/America) etc: The Coptic Church in the diaspora does seem to have a problem with this. Not only would people like George suffer, but also anyone who is Coptic and wants to pray. The Church becomes an "Egyptian social" club, and baptism in it doesnt qualify you for entry. What qualifies you is if you can speak Arabic and love Egypt.
The only thing missing in many MANY Churches is that the priest didnt put a picture of the President of Egypt in the Church Hall, nor in the Church itself. He might as well.
I have to admit that this problem is not so much in the UK. In England, a lot of the youth were born here. They are not really immigrants; and the UK is not a country of immigration. Those that go to Church go to pray. That's it. The proof is in the attitude of the sunday schools. They have really strong links with other denominations (catholic and protestant). I've been around the world, and the church that impresses me the most is that in the UK. To actually find friends there, your arabic has to be so broken and your love for Orthodoxy has to be more than your love for Egypt. If that's the case, you'd have found 1000's of friends.
I'd be very surprised if you were from the UK still. I know it can be quite hurtful when people make you feel that you are not orthodox because you do not fit the typical pedigree of a Coptic person (Egyptian Christian Orthodox Immigrant). I've seen many people leave the Church because of this. Now, the UK churches are as guilty of this as Any other church, but to a MUCH lesser extent.
This is one reason why I loved the catholic church of France. Those that go there don't go to speak French nor go to get some French culture in them. They go to worship and have fellowship - Christian Fellowship. The atmosphere is MUCh different than ANY Coptic Church. I feel in the Coptic church what unites us is Arabic and Arabic traditions. I hate that. I hate calling people who I don't know "Auntie and Uncle". I hate not being able to kiss one another a holy kiss during the mass with only men. What if I want to make peace with a girl if we argued? What if I want to reconcile with her?? You cannot do this. This is too much.
There are lot of Arabic traditions in our Church's culture that shouldn't be there. I'm not saying it is in the holy liturgy, but it is in the culture of the Church, and I find it disruptive to the overall peace and spirit of prayer that one has as a result of regular worship.
I used to wonder how could it be that someone who was born and raised in Europe can accept being Coptic Orthodox? (with all things that come with it..) then I realized there are two obstacles a person like that would have to handle. Firstly, Orthodoxy itself, which, compared to many other denominations could be looked upon as: too strict, oldfashioned, too traditional, etc. But when it comes to Coptic Churches, there is a second obstacle, the Egyptian culture.. I have this habit of trying to put myself in other people's positions to try to understand what they go through and how they see things, and when I think as a European, then I can completely imagine finding many 'irreconciable differences' between my (supposed) culture (European, Western, etc.) and the Egyptian one...
There are several reasons for the second obstacle, which might not be as present in other Orthodox churches as in the Coptic one: Copts have only started immigrating in big numbers in the second half of the last century, which is pretty recent, so many Copts in immigration are first generation or second generation with strong bonds to Egypt. Secondly, Egyptians, or at least many of them (used to be/are) very patriottic. Thirdly, in the land of immigration, one gets homesick, and tends to look for people who can give him the feeling of being 'home' more.
Now all the above reasons are not justifications for what happened to you, but they are true still. These are social factors. But they SHOULDN'T have anything to do with church, meaning as someone already mentioned, Egyptian sentiments should not be the reason why people go to church... The reason is because we are united in faith, Coptic Orthodox faith, and thus no differentiation whatsoever should be made between Egyptians and non-Egyptians.
However, there is an understandibly in my opinin, the notion of an unbreakable bond between the Coptic Orthodox church and the country of Egypt. Coptic is often used interchangeably with Egyptian, because simply they are synonims. Arabic culture, I must admit, had its bad effects on the church, the mentality of the church leaders, the members who were all (most of them at least) raised in an arabic-speaking, culturally arab atmosphere. But I wouldn't say all the effects are bad, we can ask ourselves the following: would the Coptic Church be what it is today if it hadn't been in Egypt? Not just the faith, but the monastic movement, the simplicity, the hymns, etc. If the Coptic Church for instance had been founded in Europe, and had been through the same things the Catholic church had been through, it would have been different, would it have kept the faith, would it have been as spiritual as it is now... There are many values and traditions that can be found in the Arabo-Egyptian culture that I appreciate a lot and that aren't necessarily present in Western culture. So we can't say that Arabic culture purely had a bad effect on the Coptic Church.
I am proud of being both Coptic Orthodox and Egyptian, but I don't see the two as two sides of the same coin. Religion is something and patriottism is something else and the two shouldn't interfere with eachother. I could easily have been one without the other.
So I do feel all patriottic Egyptians are Egyptians (whether they are Coptic or Muslims) and the same goes for the church, I feel all Copts are Copts, assuming the figurative use of the word Copt being a member of the Coptic Orthodox church and not the litteral meaning being a native Egyptian (whether they are Egyptian or not-Egyptian) and it's every Copt's duty to make sure that in church, faith is what bonds us and not our origin...it is faith we chose that makes us Coptic Orthodox and not our nationality which we didn't choose and had no control of There is no Egyptian or non-Egyptian, all are one in Christ
Sorry for the long post
Have a blessed Lent
Please pray for my weakness
PS as much as I might not feel comfortable with it (since I love both the Coptic and the Arabic language), liturgy in the land of immigration should be performed in the language that is used in that country, or at least some liturgies, depending on the congregation...
I mean for me I prefer the 'classic Egyptian' liturgy which combines arabic and coptic, but these languages have nothing to do with the faith and should not be an obstacle to non-Egyptians wanting to join the church because of their faith in Coptic Orthodoxy
George
Thanks Godislove260 and QT. It's comforting to know that in Europe our faith has matured to the point of defining an Orthodox person based on their belief and practice, and not ther nationality. You've refreshed my hope that we will see that in the US as well.
George
George,
It is your lucky day: we have with us on Tasbeha.org a priest from the British Orthodox Church. This is the creme de la creme of Orthodoxy. They have the Coptic Orthodox faith, without the Egyptian culture.
Ask Fr. Peter where you can attend mass?
our church (uk) will soon be doing what Godislove260 suggests and having a mass purely in english and somewhat shorter, especially for the non-orthodox english people who have expressed an interest. we are making an effort to have a positive impact on the english community. i would like to add this was planned without me suggesting it! i am in a minority of 2 english people. (we also have some eritreans but their arabic is better). i have experienced what QT did, no problems integrating in church, so maybe the problem is less in the uk.
i have to confess i like calling everyone auntie and uncle though, maybe because i never knew my extended family who were all very grumpy. i have also found a 'mum' and 'dad', maybe u should visit my church. there are enough 'mum's and 'dad's to go round! ;)
so i hope, george, with our support, you can make a positive change to your church and maybe others in the usa to show them how to reach out to those around them.
may God give us His grace.
This may be a little rare among non-Egyptian Copts, but I also kind of prefer a more Arabic-Coptic Liturgy, mainly for the hymns and responses. I still have to follow along in the book to understand Abouna's parts, so it is kind of nice (for me) when some of that is in English. On the other hand we are usually blessed to have some more elderly people in the church who often have trouble with understanding Abouna if he prays in English and whose eyes aren't as young as mine. Also, of the Coptic priests I've known (I think about ten) and have met (I have no idea how many . . . a hundred), all of them were native Arabic speakers, and it seems that when they give the Liturgy in English they have to put a good measure of concentration into reading, whereas when they do it in Arabic they are more relaxed and are more efficiently praying the Liturgy.
As far as the hymns and responses go, I think it's beautiful that we picked up a few languages along the way. In the first few centuries of the Coptic Church we added a few Copticized (is that a word?) Greek hymns (Agios, Omonogenees, Christos Anesti) and most of the short responses. From the sixth (?) century on we added a great number of Arabic hymns...
Tangent --> Does anyone disagree that the best few minutes of the year starts with "Ya kul asefuf" and goes through "Christos Anesti". It may be just me but I think I would cry if anyone suggested disturbing those few minutes by changing anything. Or worse, I might not cry during those few minutes.
Ok, back to the topic --> I love the Coptic church as-is, the one I've grown up in. The only thing I would like to see different is more realization that you don't need the ethnicity to love everything about the church (including its ethnicity and culture).
Thanks again, and God bless,
George
WOW, Thanks . . . I really like learning about stuff like this.
That's really interesting. I've heard the term British Orthodox, but I had no idea they were Copts.
I've got some reading to do. ;D
George
Recently I attended some talks given by Fr Tadros Malaty in London. He was clear that there should be more English in services.
Later I attended a Coptic service that was supposedly in English. Many older people looked, well, fed up with it although one lady was valiantly raising her voice above all others and in English.
You have a long way to go but none of the other Orthodox churches are much better. Most Greek churches don't have any English (except the Symbol of Faith) and my Russian church is about 50/50 for the liturgy although the Hours are in Slavonic.
And what about the BOC? That isn't really an option in the metropolis yet . So it seems that the Copts and Russians are best placed to reach out to the British by having a liturgy in English frequently. May God bless them.
It is saddening to hear about all this and even more saddening to hear about 'phyletism' among the Copts whom I had heard so many good things about.
Recently I attended some talks given by Fr Tadros Malaty in London. He was clear that there should be more English in services.
Later I attended a Coptic service that was supposedly in English. Many older people looked, well, fed up with it although one lady was valiantly raising her voice above all others and in English.
You have a long way to go but none of the other Orthodox churches are much better. Most Greek churches don't have any English (except the Symbol of Faith) and my Russian church is about 50/50 for the liturgy although the Hours are in Slavonic.
And what about the BOC? That isn't really an option in the metropolis yet . So it seems that the Copts and Russians are best placed to reach out to the British by having a liturgy in English frequently. May God bless them.
The number of non-Egyptian or non-arabic speaking youth in the Coptic Diaspora must be in the UK. I think that is why they are looking at doing the mass in English more often. It is a tad bit unfair for the older generation to frown upon this. They must be telling themselves "Those darn agnabies!! They should learn Arabic!!".
Yes, learning arabic is good, even swahili, but I personally am fed up of listening to a sermon in Arabic and only understanding 70 to 80% of it. If abouna uses ONE word in arabic that I don't know, then it just ruins the entire meaning for me.
Is it ANY wonder why our youth go to Kensington Temple, or Holy Trinity Brompton (HTB)?? They spend their entire time singing Coptic/Arabic hymns that have no meaning to them.
At first, I must admit, I didnt understand why they were not happy with the Coptic/Arabic ratio of hymns in our Church and prayers! But now I see. If the liturgy in our Church lasts 2 hours, then out of that 2 hours, what percentage of what is being prayed/sung/read is actually understood??
I used to be of the opinion that if there's anything you do not understand just get the kholagy and read the translation. But there are MAJOR problems with this:
a) The translation books (Kholagies) in English are ALWAYS missing something. If the priest wants to switch to gregorian or to the Kirolos liturgy, you're just totally messedup.
b) More importantly, whilst you are reading the english translation, you are not completely praying. You are reading. I mean, you in a state of education, like at school. Your mind is focused on understanding the words rather than praying the words.
It is well known that people usually pray the "our Father.. " in their native tongues. Otherwise, they cannot really pray.
Then, to make matters worse, we have a large numbers of growing Coptic-die-hards who do not understand the word "Compromise" when singing hymns: it either has to be in Coptic, or nothing at all.
And then, above all that, we have the egyptian-coptic culture in our Church that has proven more damaging than edifying. The cultural laws placed on us within the Church does in no way help to nurture a Christian spirit of fellowship within the Church. Rather than what unites us as being our love for Christ, it clearly becomes our love for our Culture. In fact, this attitude does not help Copts at all. Rather than integrate and feel you are a citizen of your country of immigration, you become more inclined to feel that you are actually still an egyptian. After attending a Coptic Church from an early age, I had the impression I already knew what Egypt was like without ever having been there. My arabic improved even from just listening to people in the Church.
The greeks CLAIM to have this problem with language: that their mass is in Greek and the youth don't speak that much greek.. but Greek as a language is alive. It is not redundant. We cannot compare their problem with ours. The greek orthodox youth seem to complain that there is too much culture and less spirituality in their Church, but I doubt this has anything to do with our problems. Each problem is unique.
I think however, one thing we MUST learn from the Catholic Church is a few things introduced in Vatican II that were not that bad: namely having a mass that was in the native language of that country, and NOT in latin. The French Catholic mass in France is the same yet different slightly than that in the UK, or the Irish Catholic Church. The hymns are unique to the French language, the liturgy is in the French language, and the sermons are in the French language. This only results in the focus of the entire Church on prayer. There nothing done or said that is haphazard to the understanding of the worshipper. The clergy themselves, being native French, can communicate with native French worshippers. We do not have this. We have priests who have never grown up in the UK talking to kids who have NO idea what life was like in Egypt?? How can that be?
I think there must be a time when the CoC decides on its faith. The CoC in Egypt can enjoy the Coptic mass in Arabic, and Coptic. LUKCY THEM! However, those in France or Spain need to have the hymns written for their langauges. It is ABSOLUTELY incomprehensible translating the fasting hymn for the communion ("blessed is he who fasts and pray and gives to the poor") in French. YOU CANNOT understand it.
It is totally pointless. The song was in Arabic, and is now translated in French. When a child growing up in such environment listens to such music, no doubt he'll feel that in order to be COMPLETELY saved one must learn Arabic. This is not right. Our faith is beyond culture and language.
And that part is true: we can only understand such hymns if we had knowledge of the hymn in arabic from the beginning.
The CoC must make hymns that are created for the language of the location.
The French catholic hymn: "crier de joie" is brilliant, but the UK catholics have their own version. The words are different, but the meaning is the same.
Unless the Church decides to actually respect the fact that the population in the diaspora are NOT obliged to learn Coptic and Arabic in order to be saved, they will find themselves losing many people to either other orthodox churches, or to other denominations.